E85Forum.com

THINKING GREEN · Joined: 12 Aug 2010 Posts: 4 Location: Colorado

I have just started a sb 350 build (engine stripped down polishing the inside) and I am thinking about building it for straight E85. It will be a daily driver going into an 85 Pontiac Trans Am. I am looking to get the MOST I can out of it for I would also be racing it in the summer and I drive it in the winter months as well where the temp can fall below zero.
Things to consider
Cost, and reliability.

Info I need to have
What Heads, Fuel Injectors, Cam, and Compression ratio to go with and what gains can I expect. No boost all motor.

Also thinking about running a pair of Turbos in the future.

I saw a system used over seas that would allow the driver to cold start the vehicle on gas (using a button and a timer relay) then switch to E85 soon after the vehicle started. The gas fuel cell was under the hood in what looked like a 1 gallon plastic container

Interesting Fact
I am not able to run straight E85 and I have stock MAF system (TPI)
(car runs but dies as soon as foot is taken off of the gas)
Speed density set up will run on straight E85 and stay running (TPI)

Thank you in advanced for any and all info.
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Thinking Green

fleebut · Joined: 13 Aug 2010 Posts: 2

Good luck, you have an ambitious project. Can't give you specific part numbers as engine shops make a living off such valuable info. Your in a hard spot wanting high power and reliability.

As you know turbo's expensive and will have a negative impact on you reliability. In general with lots attention to detail a great efficient power booster. Best bang for your buck, up the CR, 25% bigger injectors, use old coil ignition, and put much more heat to intake and fuel. For higher mpg max intake air temps and use more EGR.

THINKING GREEN · Joined: 12 Aug 2010 Posts: 4 Location: Colorado

Just building an engine is an ambitious project if you want to do it right.

I am already using a small Dizzy with MSD auxilary coil.

Up my compression 25% based on what. Currently I am running between 9:5.1 or 10.1 cast iron heads and hyperutectic flat top pistons (did not build the motor that is currently in it so I really do not know the exact CR) I run on 85 octane with no ill affects.

Adding turbo's should not negatively affect the reliability if I do not overboost, say around 8-10 psi. The number 1 destroyer of a turbo is dirty oil and I plan on using synthetic (a must with a turbo) and changing it every 4-6K. The number one destroyer of the motor would be to over boost. Because of the qualities in the E85 I would not need to add that much timing, so detonation should not be an issue either. The expense of adding a turbo is around $1,200 which can be done later. And switching from Hyperutectic pistons to Forged would only add a few hundred dollars depending on the brand.

I was thinking of using alloy heads (Summit Heads SUM-162111 to be exact) and upping my CR to around 11:1 and use Hyperutectic pistons. The block I am working on is a roller motor so I would be using a roller cam and lifters (Trick Flow TFS-31402000 214/220 lift .452/.465 2400 - 5900 RPMS). Replace w/ 30lb injectors which should be good for around 450hp. I could go with Forged pistons in case I decide to Boost it later. Boost motors likes low compression on gas and E85 likes high compression. I should be able to switch to the E85 once I have the other parts, boost it and it would be a different beast altogether. I could run the turbo in the summer and not use it in the winter by unplumbing it and switching out the headers and then go with the E60 or 91 Octane gas...just my theory.

I do not have an EGR system but I do have the factory AIR system. The Holly Stealth Ram (which is a great intake to use for boost) does not have a provision for the EGR. On a hot summer day cruising down the highway I will get a CEL because of this as soon as engine temp hits the 195-200 degree mark. How important is the EGR when using E85?

Not sure what you mean by adding more heat to the intake charge and maxing the intake air temps. I am currently running a functioning hood scoop. Do I need to pick up the air at the rear of the engine compartment where the air is hotter and ditch the cold air intake? If I was to run a turbo I could scrap the intercooler? In a gas engine (w/ or w/o boost) the colder the intake charge the more power it will make. Is this not true with E85?

Not sure what else I can use besides steel in place of the few feet of rubber fuel lines.
Not sure if I can use the in tank fuel pump or If I will need to replace it along with the AFPR. What else do I need to consider before I start building this thing for E85. If my above theory is correct I could swap this stuff out at a later time after I make the E85 jump.
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Thinking Green

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

TG- I think where Fleebut was coming from on the EGR was fuel efficiency (mpg) and on the warmer intake, again- fuel efficiency in a low compression FFV application- this might even apply to you in temps under 50 degrees. Large motors (particularly in lower compression) will like a bit of preheat for faster warmup and fuel efficiency in lower temps. Ethanol of course gets it's high octane and detonation resistance from it's great cooling properties- but in cold weather it means poor warmup (paticularly at very rich AFR) until you can get it under load- in extreme cold it would help to continue injesting warmer air. (Remember the old carb'ed cars of the sixties with the heat riser off of the exhaust manifold that also included a heat control valve?)

Most of the guys I see tuning performance engines with boost will be able to avoid an intercooler though a few will use them or even more so- use water or methanol injection to cool the charge (these are extreme machines with up to 30#s boost Laughing

).

I did not see what type of racing you plan to do- if it is going to be street and bracket you could opt for high compression only if mpg and consistancy is important to you, but will likely need to run no less than E70 if going up thru 13 or 13.5:1.

Your idea of 11:1 and boost seems very reasonable if you are looking for higher hp in the race application and/or future flexibility.

I would rather one of the other guys here chime in as they are more knowledgeable in performance applications than I. It would seem to me that having to eliminate the turbo in the winter would be a major hassle so could you not just wastegate this so that you could run E70 safely? (you likely will not want to get all over it on snowy or icy roads anyway).

What fuel pump is in this right now and what are it's specs?

THINKING GREEN · Joined: 12 Aug 2010 Posts: 4 Location: Colorado

Ok now that makes sense, in pulling in warmer air to aid in start up in cold weather. I think to keep things simple for now or until I am able to play around with it I will probably just use gas in the winter. Gas stations always switch over to the the blended stuff anyways as soon as it gets cold or increase the amount of Ethonal already in the fuel.

I am extreemly nieve when it comes to Turbos and I did not know I could simply divert the boost (That would save some time) thank you. Having the extra power just makes driving more exciting in the winter and is the only time it costs nothing to do a square corner (for the tires sake).

I try and make it to Bandamier speed way at least 3-5X a year to get my speed fix (drag racing) however as you know this craving is hard to satisfy...LOL, Always looking for more Laughing

Fuel economy is important to me but I would be more than happy to lose a little here to make up for it in HP within reason. Right now I average around 11 mpg in the city with the set up I have now and about 18 on the highway. I have highway gears (Borg Warner 9 bolt 327) it is nice to be able to cruise at 75 and only tack 2400RPM's (for fuel economy). Longevity however is more important to me than the Extra 150-200HP that I could make by increasing the boost and CR. I have always built motors and ran them below what they were capable of because of this. The motor I am currently building is also a 2 bolt main and I do not want to spend the extra $ in going with splayed mains and a forged crank, the machine work alone is almost the price of a descent set of heads.

I am currently using a Bosh OEM replacement pump which I replaced last year. I do not know what the specs are but will find out. I have my FPR set at 45psi but have had it as high as 55 (difference in PSI was not worth the extra 2mph I saw in the quarter mile and lost aprox 3mpg on the highway) and with what I have read in some of the other posts VOLUME is more critical than higher pressure. This brings up another question, do I go with a much larger injector (to be safe) go with a 42 instead of the 30. With a management system I can change the flow rate and increase or decrease the FP to maintain the correct AFR. It seems here that larger would be better for I would not want to be lean at WOT.

When reading through some of the other posts it also seems I will need to get a Wide Band O2 Sensor (and re-locate it to the 9 o clock position, currently at the 8 o clock spot)
I will also need to purchase a programable engine management device and have no clue on where to start there either.

Thanks for the feed back while I brain storm!
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Thinking Green

THINKING GREEN · Joined: 12 Aug 2010 Posts: 4 Location: Colorado

Info on the current Bosh FP when set at 43.5 PSI
Flow 18.1 lbs hr
Bars 3.0
Feed EV1
Impedance High

According to the web site the higher the FP the lower the flow rate will be.
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Thinking Green