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specialgreen
Site Admin
Joined: 10 Jul 2004
Posts: 259
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
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 Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:14 pm Post subject: hybrid cars and E-85 |
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I had seen a report about engineering students in Mankato running a stock Prius on E-85:
http://www.greenenergynetwork.com/media/studies/prius-e85.PDF
It sounds like the only problem they experienced was a recurring check engine light. The car was able to adjust to the appropriate air/fuel mixture, but it was still throwing a CEL, as if to say "hey, something different is happening here!". I wonder if anyone has found a solution to the recurring check engine light?
There was an article "Hybrid-Car Tinkerers Scoff at No-Plug-In Rule" by Danny Hakim in the New York Times on April 2nd:
| Quote: | | Ron Gremban and Felix Kramer have modified a Toyota Prius so it can be plugged into a wall outlet. ... This does not make Toyota happy. |
(article at http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1040_22-5655009.html )
Thomas Friedman followed that up on June 17th with an editorial "As Toyota Goes", about the potential for a plug-in, E-85 hybrid:
| Quote: | if you had a hybrid that you could plug in at night, the battery could store up 20 miles of driving per day. So your first 20 miles would be covered by the battery. The gasoline would only kick in after that. Since 50 percent of Americans do not drive more than 20 miles a day, the battery power would cover all their driving.
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if you combined a plug-in hybrid system with a flex-fuel system that burns 80 percent alcohol and 20 percent gasoline, you could end up stretching each gallon of gasoline up to 500 miles.
In short, we don't need to reinvent the wheel |
(article at http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/17/opinion/17friedman.html )
If the E-85 Prius is already rolling, this sounds like a very attainable goal. Hybrid cars and trucks could actually be a big enabler of E-85: I have read that if the US converted most of its corn crop to ethanol, we would still only be able to replace 10% to 30% of our gasoline consumption with ethanol. However, if gasoline consumption could be halved by integration of hybrid power into most new car models, then that ethanol could go a very long way!
So who do we write to at Toyota, to ask them to warranty the car for use with E-85, already? It sounds like the State of Minnesota may already have an effort to ask manufacturers to warranty use of E-20; if they're going to go to the trouble and expense, why not just warranty E-85 from the get-go? |
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PumpingE85
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:17 am Post subject: Hybrid-FFV may be on the way |
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The recently passed Energy Policy Act of 2005 includes a provision for the Secretary of Energy to direct the development of a hybrid-electric flexible fuel platform.
[[Guess they don't know about the CREED Project's Toyota Prius buzzing around St. Paul, MN??]] www.CREEDProject.org |
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specialgreen
Site Admin
Joined: 10 Jul 2004
Posts: 259
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 9:30 am Post subject: |
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The E85 Prius study noted that CO emissions were as bad as gasoline after cold start, then got better after a while. I have also noticed that my old E-85 carbureted motorcycle is a bit hard to start when it has sat out on the street in winter. I add a little propane to help get it started.
My carburetors have an enrichment circuit (not a true choke), and I have thought that instead of just trying to dump in more E-85 to overcome rough running on cold startups, it would be nicer if I could feed the enrichment circuit with gasoline, butane or propane. On an FFV, that might allow for lower CO emissions on cold-start. |
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PumpingE85
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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On the emissions side of things, its my understanding that the catalytic converter does not 'light up' fast enough; so, you have a 60- to 120- second of emissions. Several things have been suggested - like a pre-heater that pops on when you sit in the drivers seat or when you clip the seat belt.
On the fuel cold start side, it may be possible to adjust the fuel blend. Getting too complicated (outside of us fiddling around) defeats the purpose and will prevent mass production.
You'll also note that the other emissions were considerably lower on the E85 Prius -- and the braking Hp was increased. All of this was done without any adjustment to the vehicle. Makes me wonder if the brains at Toyota couldn't come up with some answers if they were motivated to. |
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Fubbel
Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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I've a Prius Classic (P1). In summer I've testet E100....
In old Germany we have no Ethanol-stations. No E10, no E20, no E50, no E85....
I've sold 25 liters E96 from the chemical industry for testing...
I've filled 3 liters in the tank with 1-2 liters gasoline --> It's ok. No check engine light (CEL)!
After 70 kilometers the tank was empty. And I've filled 5 liters E100 (E96) --> All is ok. No CEL!
Then I've tested the "kickdown" --> ups, only 65km/h and no more.
Driving without "kickdown" --> all ok, max. speed ~160km/h, with gasoline ~ 170km/h.
I think, that is a problem with the gasoline-pump, no more liters per time...
One morning, only 14°C (57F), starting -> ups, engine goes off
second starting -> engine goes off
third starting -> engine is on...
That's the known problem with pure ethanol...
I've only seen the CEL, if the tank was empty...
Last week: The first E50-station is open in Germany - the station is 2 km from my way to my work, but the price is only 10% below gasoline  |
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rebelman
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 31
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm not sure if the hybrid is really that much more fuel effiecient on e85 than regular gas. Most hybrids only get about 40 to 45 mpg. thats not that bad but some regular cars get more than that. Also if we use other sources of cellulose to make ethanol then we could run regular cumbustion engine vehicles all the time with lowered emmisions. The fuel effieciency can be worked on some to improve the economy of ethanol. The emissions before the catalitic converter starts working will be lower than if used with gasoline anyway. |
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Fubbel
Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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The Prius get 55mpg with gasoline, not 40 or 45.
Hybrids have a combustion engine. Why not ethanol? It's a nearly regular engine... Other Hybrids have a regular engine.
Ethanol from biological sources is also for hybrids. Ethanol from petroleum is for all cars unacceptable.
The Prius Engine runs with gas, ethanol, propane, butane, methane... |
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hotrod
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 872
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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There is no reason why hybrid cars shouldn't go to ethanol fuels, it would reduce their net emissions even lower.
That said, a 1%-2% improvement in net emissions for several million normal cars is a far bigger piece of the pie than a 10% -20% reduction in emissions on a car that is already very low in emissions.
In terms of net return, it would be better to get low percentages of ethanol in everyones fuel tank.
Larry |
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specialgreen
Site Admin
Joined: 10 Jul 2004
Posts: 259
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| PumpingE85 wrote: | | On the fuel cold start side, it may be possible to adjust the fuel blend. Getting too complicated (outside of us fiddling around) defeats the purpose and will prevent mass production. |
I've read that Brazil solved their problems cold-starting with 100% wet alcohol, by allowing the car to start on gasoline. Maybe they have a separate reservoir of gasoline? It sounds as though dual-fuel systems may not be too complicated for mass-production.
| rebelman wrote: | | I'm not sure if the hybrid is really that much more fuel effiecient on e85 than regular gas. Most hybrids only get about 40 to 45 mpg. thats not that bad but some regular cars get more than that. |
But if you're talking about plug-in hybrids, then there's a potential for significant savings. A hybrid car used for a short urban commute can make the leap from 45mpg to 60mpg if it's plugged-in; a non-hybrid can't make that jump.
Speaking of synergistic technologies, elsewhere on this forum, some drag racers are finding that turbo engines are a good fit for "flex fuel": a computer could dial-in the amount of compression which is appropriate for the mixture in the tank, even as it changes from fill-up to fill-up. Using increased compression, a car should be able to recover most of the MPG lost moving from gasoine to ethanol. Additionally, some test vehicles are now shutting-down a pair of cylinders when cruising on the highway.
Maybe the next "killer app" will be a hybrid, turbo, flex-fuel car that you can plug-in for urban commutes, or coast on two cylinders for highway cruising? |
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