E85Forum.com

Dennisscars · Joined: 05 Jul 2010 Posts: 6 Location: SoCal

I've seen quite a bit about not being compatible with Aluminum but not to what end. I assumed it would eat or somehow harm the parent material. So my question is, does the aluminum contaminate the E85?

I set up a new tank with a cast pump with a proper E85 packing/check kit, proper cast filter housing with proper high alcohol 10m filter but cheaped out and bought an aluminum swivel and aluminum auto shut off diesel nozzle thinking it was cheap enough to take a chance on the E85, in time, eating through the material.

After my event the tank set idle for about a month until this last weekend when I, thankfully not in my car, dispensed some into a jug. To my surprise it came out pretty dark brown much like very old stale regular fuel. Not to my surprise it stuck the plastic auto shut off mechanism in the closed position. Unscrewed the filter and it was clear. Unscrewed nozzle and cycled pump to discharge in same jug and fuel appeared to be clear.

So what I'm wondering, does the material foul the fuel? I'm also assuming that improper hose would deteriorate the hose and not necessarily foul the fuel?

Any experience in this regard?
Thanks
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"The slowest driver in the slowest car in the slowest class is having more fun than anybody in the stands." - Mike Stephens

E drifto · Joined: 26 Mar 2010 Posts: 12

the only black i've ever seen come out is the paper fuel filter, when i blew through it backwards, tons of crap came out, the tank must be clean now...

i've also had another isolated experience where the e85 became very sticky & started seizing the fuel pressure regulator & other sticky nightmares, it appeared that a single unbraided rubber fuel return hose in the gas tank dissolved into super sticky fuel, but it seemed clear if i recall

i'd guess you have some soft rubber in there somewhere, if not completely dissolved
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1987 16v Scirocco w P1SC-1 Procharger
recurved cis-e jetronic - flex fuel knob on the dash

Dennisscars · Joined: 05 Jul 2010 Posts: 6 Location: SoCal

Thanks I think your right.

The fuel was a lighter brown after this last shorter time period, kinda like strong tea. I left it in a pan to evaporate and it left some black goo. Wondering if this is similar to what others have seen on their injectors.

Ordered a E-85 compatible fuel delivery hose and Viton poly nozzle. Should be all compatible now. We'll see in a couple of weeks.
_________________
"The slowest driver in the slowest car in the slowest class is having more fun than anybody in the stands." - Mike Stephens

Obormot · Joined: 27 Jun 2008 Posts: 44 Location: Ukraine

found about ethanol and aluminium:

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

I can say that while the statement is in part true, one must not take it out of context. While much of it would be true for home brew or hydrous ethanol-- US Spec ethanol is annhydrous, tested for chlorides, and other metals and as long as not contaminated after market by such metals or allowed free air exchange to cause it to gain excessive moisture- aluminum will remain unaffected. While it is true that one should avoid dissimilar metals at connections that could cause a galvanic reaction- many have been able to get away with it ok unlike what is often the case with methanol. The addition of corrosion inhibitor as per requirements for US fuel grade ethanol further reduces such reactions. And these problems can also exist with gasoline- I had a bulk plant storage tank filled with pure gasoline that suffered from galvanic corrosion and started leaking after 12 years- when we rebottomed the tank we found the old floor had approx 25 quarter sized holes developing from a galvanic reaction.

That said- I have a quart aluminun sample bottle in my car that I is filled with E100 right off the mole sieve sample port and contains no corrosion inhibitor still shows no discoloration after 5 years. The inside of the fuel dispensers also contain copper and aluminum yet when I have sampled fuel from them early in the morning before they have dispensed fuel also show the fuel to be within specifications. When we change dispenser filters the aluminum bases are also as brite inside as the day we put them into service. Nearly all transport tankers are also made of aluminum.

While I think it is something to be aware of and if building a fuel system from scratch then select compatible materials- one can easily go overboard here. For example- use this chart to see what "gasoline high aromatic" looks like for aluminum;

Select the "gasoline high aromatic" in the right hand box and then "submit"
http://www.coleparmer.com/techinfo/chemcomp.asp

Now do the same for ethanol (ethyl alcohol).

If someone also wants to see elastomer charts and other seal data just look thru these;

http://www.dupontelastomers.com/crg/tlargiguide.asp

440Jim · Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 188

I agree.
E85 fuel is not bad as far as corrosion of aluminum is concerned. The issue is with allowing air exchange with moisture. Keep stored fuel sealed. Some pump/nozzle setups may not seal the tank suffciently But if the fuel in your tank was still OK, it is a nozzle problem.

A few years ago when I started running E85 in my race car, I put a piece of bare aluminum fuel line in a sealed glass jar with E85. At the end of the summer, both the fuel and aluminum looked the same as day one.

Dennisscars · Joined: 05 Jul 2010 Posts: 6 Location: SoCal

Thanks for the replies. The Viton poly nozzle showed up before the the hose so I went to my last event with the old hose and the poly nozzle.

After sitting for about a week I flushed the hose into one of my jugs prior to my car. It was tea color again before it cleared up.

The new hose showed up after I got back. I flushed old hose before replacing and it was tea color after a week. I hope new hose is compatible because it at least had plated crimp collars but had some type of gray coating on fittings.

After getting back to shop I dismembered the old hose and the hose did not seem to be degredated internally but the ends were cast aluminum (non magnetic and I cut in two) with some type of brown coating on them. So I'm hoping that the fuel was either leaching the brown coating or reacting with the cast AL making the brown coating.

My first tip off with the old hose should have been the crimp collars where brass, although not in contact with fittings or fuel, if I would have known then what I know now I would have stayed away from all soft materials.

I too put various samples of sheet AL, tank slosh foam, and a piece of neck gasket rubber in a Mason jar. It's been several months without change. I placed a piece of the hose and a piece of the threaded fitting in the jar to see what happens.

We'll see what happens with this configuration.
_________________
"The slowest driver in the slowest car in the slowest class is having more fun than anybody in the stands." - Mike Stephens

Dennisscars · Joined: 05 Jul 2010 Posts: 6 Location: SoCal

Seems to be the hose, the sample with the hose is definitely turning a darker shade of brown than when I started. I'm not seeing any degradation of the hose. It must be reacting one with the other.

You'd never see this if you pumped directly into vehicle.
_________________
"The slowest driver in the slowest car in the slowest class is having more fun than anybody in the stands." - Mike Stephens

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

Dennisscars · Joined: 05 Jul 2010 Posts: 6 Location: SoCal

The replacement is a Goodyear hose from Nozzlemax that is suppose to be E85 rated but not able to discern by the markings.

Have not had the opportunity to pull a sample as of yet.

Now my motor to pump seal is leaking from the weep hole. It didn't come as part of the E85 conversion kit, so I'm hoping that it's just cut and not incompatible as well. Have a replacement enroute so hoping to change next weekend.
_________________
"The slowest driver in the slowest car in the slowest class is having more fun than anybody in the stands." - Mike Stephens

440Jim · Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 188

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

Dennisscars- Also- which pump do you have? Since you have an auto shut off nozzle I have been assuming you have either a 12v or 115v type rather than a push/pull or rotary manual. I have an old rotary GasBoy manual here that I have thought about using but those are known for developing a leak around the shaft seal (O ring) even on gas. You bought a FillRite powered unit right?

Dennisscars · Joined: 05 Jul 2010 Posts: 6 Location: SoCal

Yes, the FillRite 1202 12vdc pump with the optional E85 o-ring kit. The hose that came with it was the one I had problem with.

Which really wasn't their fault as it's not rated, but I thought I'd try and see what did what.

Lots of info going around on little trouble with compatibility issues none real concrete, so I thought I'd take my chances.

Now I know that the hose that comes with it should be changed and not to use a diesel auto shut off nozzle. Nozzle was fine but it upset the shut off part. Have changed hose and gone to a poly manual nozzle.

I guess that's why their bio pump is some more expensive. I'm probably getting there, just one piece at a time.. reminds me of the Johnny Cash song.
_________________
"The slowest driver in the slowest car in the slowest class is having more fun than anybody in the stands." - Mike Stephens

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

For anyone else who is reading this thread- when I used to be in the petroleum distribution business we used to sell a lot of FillRite and especially GasBoy 12v and 115v pumps. We always threw the hoses shipped with the pumps away (if one was provided in the kit) and sold a better hose to the farmer or construction company. The "free" hoses rarely lasted a year in use with either gas or diesel before they cracked so bad they would let go.

We also threw away the adjustable suction pipe and cut a black pipe (NEVER USE GALVANIZED) to fit the tank so as to draw 1-2 inches off the tank bottom (this was to stay above the crud and water- not necessary with E85 to stay so far off tank bottom). The reason we threw away the adjustable suction pipe? -- the seal would go bad and the pump then would suck air.

The diesel nozzle may have failed due to the seal being "idealized" for diesel rather than gas. Often Viton is used and most is great for E85 however- what is not commonly understood is that there are at least 3 types of Viton- one of them is not the best for methanol or ethanol. Even Buna N may perform better than that type of Viton. Generally a higher end station type gas nozzle will be acceptable for E85 because of the seals used but not always.