E85Forum.com

B94Sport · Joined: 25 Feb 2006 Posts: 4

I would like to start running E85. I will be installing larger injectors, a higher-flowing fuel pump, and having the car tuned. I am a little concerned about the fuel pump and the fact that E85 conducts electricity. The fuel pump uses exposed posts for its power and ground, and the wires connecting to the posts use metal ring terminals. Is this an issue, or am I overthinking things? Should I insulate the posts and terminals in some way?

delco · Joined: 26 Feb 2006 Posts: 3 Location: Council Bluffs, Iowa

The only thing I know is that on a Ford Ranger with the same engine the fuel pump replacement parts are different.

B94Sport · Joined: 25 Feb 2006 Posts: 4

Any more input?

Corn Squeezins · Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 42 Location: Madison, WI

On what kind of vehicle are you doing these mods to? As far as fuel pump
arcing the pump is designed to run in fuel and is in a low oxygen environment - besides the potential of 12v is not a great arc risk in the tank or they would be designed quite differently for this usage.

B94Sport · Joined: 25 Feb 2006 Posts: 4

Okay... I've read conflicting reports on exactly how well E85 conducts electricity. So it sounds like I won't earn a Darwin award for this endeavor.

hotrod · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 872 Location: Colorado

By the way please clarify what make/model and year vehicle your working with?

The problem with the fuel pumps is not well documented so it is mostly an experimental issue.

The problem is more to do with corrosion due to electical current setting up a corrosion cell between dissimilar metals.

In my Subaru I've run the walbro GSS342 intank pump for over a year with high ethanol fuel blends. If time and money permits I hope to pull that pump out here in a few months and "dissect it" to see how it has stood up to the fuel environment.

This report has some documented info (very limited though) on pump compatibility on page 19, from the University of Nebraska at Lincoln's work on converting a Chevy truck to dedicated E85 operation.

http://www.westbioenergy.org/reports/55019/55019_final.htm

If there is replacement fuel pump available for your vehicle that was intended for a FFV model that would be the safest way to go.

Based on the content of that report it may be enough to simply coat the ring terminals with RTV. In general you want to eliminate dissimilar metals, or use low reactivity metals like stainless or nickle plated brass, as much as possible where they will be continuously exposed to the fuel.

It would be useful if anyone that has electrolytic corrosion problems on fuel pumps post here to keep a list of pumps that don't play Well with E85 or high ethanol blends.

At this point I can say the Walbro GSS342 is not formally recommended for use with ethanol but appears to have a reasonable useful life in that application.

This report has some useful info in it too!

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~ethanolboat/Ethanol_Outboard_Final_Report.pdf

The writer clearly got some bad information about how difficult it is to modify a fuel injected engine to run on ethanol, but going to dartmoth he did not likely have ready access to active hotrodders that deal with this sort of thing on a daily basis.

This report also lists some fuel compatibility issues and tests. On page 43 it mentions fuel pumps, and that aluminium alloys are used in contact with ethanol in some commercial applications.

I am beginning to suspect concerns about fuel pumps is largely theoretical rather that operational. Fuel pumps fail when running on gasoline too, so to date the overwhelming silence from folks who have done conversions regarding fuel pumps issues implies that the currently available fuel pumps are likely "compatible enough" to get the job done for time spans in excess of 1 -2 years of operation.

Not to say we cannot improve on that by making some simple precautionary measures, but if they were really "incompatible" you would see very quick failures -- ie in weeks or months of use.

What I would like to do is put together a fuel pump stress test setup and pump E85 in circles for 24 hours a day for a couple weeks and see what happens.

Not likely to happen any time soon, but it would be nice to run a pump to destruction and put a few thousand hours on it to see how it copes with that.

---- Any university engineering students looking for a project out there ??

Larry

abqautotech · Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 11 Location: 1942 Broadway ne

We have been running our 94 Caprice on e85 since aug05 without any modifications. The car has 170000miles and we have been using the factory fuel pump without any problems. We cut up the fuel filter when we replaced it and did not find anything strange. And yes for hot rodders it is easy to modify most ecm especially GM because they were the most open with their source code and they have the least costly programmers and reflashing setups for laptops and PCs.
_________________
Albuquerque Auto Tech
1942 Broadway ne
ABQ NM 87102
505-247-0980

BURNALCOHOL · Joined: 19 Oct 2005 Posts: 50 Location: Raymond,NE

I've been running mostly straight E85 in my 99 Ford ZX2 since July 05. No problem so far. My car is converted using a flextek converter. All other parts are original.
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Jeremy Nicholls

hotrod · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 872 Location: Colorado

Just an additional related note on fuel compatiblity.

I am in the process of doing an upgrade to my car, for this coming summer, new larger injectors etc.

In the process of doing that, I've removed much of the stock fuel system in the engine compartment, and decided to cut one of the fuel hoses to get a feel for how it was coping with high ethanol fuel blends.

For background to those that have not found their way to my FAQ

I've put about 500 gallons of ethanol through my car over the last 2 years, including about 6 months on 100% E85. I took the stock rubber fuel line that goes into the fuel filter and cut it lengthwise so I could examine its interior for signs of deterioration. When cut in half I opened the hose up and found the interior of the hose (still wet with fuel) to be slick and flexible as you would expect to see in a new fuel line. I then bent it double with the inside surface on the outside of the bend to check for signs of checking or cracking of the rubber. I did not show any cracks or breakdown of any kind. I then allowed the hose segment to air dry for a week and repeated the examination. After drying it again appeared normal in all regards and showed no signs of cracking or splitting due to the 180 degree bend test. Likewise I examined the O-rings on the Subru WRX injectors and also found no signs of cracking, or changes in flexibilty, they appeared normal in all regards.

In short based on my 2 years of high ethanol fuel blend usage, in my 2002 WRX the fuel system on this car appears to be sufficiently compatible that it was uneffected during that test period.

Larry

BURNALCOHOL · Joined: 19 Oct 2005 Posts: 50 Location: Raymond,NE

I have pulled my fuel lines off also. No sign of compatability problems here ether.
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Jeremy Nicholls

1outlaw · Joined: 15 Feb 2006 Posts: 89 Location: Central Wisconsin

I operate 4 E85 stations and in the next 90 days will open 3 more. I have talked to so many people at the pumps that regularly use E85 in non-modified standard vehicles. (I always warn them of of the fact they could damage components or at a minimum get a lean code CEL and it is not legal to misfuel a vehicle). Most will experience the CEL at some point and some will lose power or become hard to start but the fact is some vehicles run very good on it without modification (some of these have run it for 2-3 years) and their MPG is the same as with NL. In theory they would be running too lean and the timing would be off yet the evaporative nature of ethanol seems to offset the heat problems from these issues.

My question would be on vehicles that perform well of E85 without modification- what benefits are there in installing a kit or increase the fuel rate when that will decrease mileage??????????? Some of these vehicle owners are old alcohol racers who are not afraid to run lean. What really scares me is I talked to a guy the other day with a helicopter flying service that has been using it in his choppers for 2 years- I told him I strongly feel he needs to rethink this.

hotrod · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 872 Location: Colorado

abqautotech · Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 11 Location: 1942 Broadway ne

This is much like what happen with r-12 and r-134 freon. Many including the manufacturers had said that the are not compatable in their given systems. Later mechanics found out that you can put the r134 in empty r12 systems and it would work fine. It is theory vs real world experience. A lab will never be able to dublicate the real world 100%. We put a higher value on real world experience than theory. We have ran E85 in variety of our own and some willing customers vehicles with no bad experiences. We have done compartive emmissions tests and found that just running the E85 without any modifications reduces the high speed Carbon monoxide by half. EPA is a has rules that don't address this sort of conversion yet but they will eventually have to especially when real world data shows a reduction in emmissions. We also think we can reduce emmission even more with computer reflashing.
_________________
Albuquerque Auto Tech
1942 Broadway ne
ABQ NM 87102
505-247-0980

Corn Squeezins · Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 42 Location: Madison, WI

"I'm sure the issue varies from car to car. In my case the car runs just great with no modifications at 33% E85 but needs some changes to run well on 100% E85. Once the modifications the car ran perfectly on 100% E85 and the fuel milage was only about 7% -10% lower than it would be on gasoline. At the fuel prices in place last winter it was still cheaper to run the 100% E85 even with the lower miles per gallon.

More important to me are the multiple advantages. The car has much better performance on E85 than it does on gasoline. It is very much cheaper than what I would pay for a proper high octane gasoline that would provide the same performance (ie $1.89/ gal for the E85 at that time, vs $5.00 / gallon for 104 octane unleaded).

I also assign value to the intangible benefits of reducing green house gases, reducing fossile fuel imports and promoting a robust renewable fuel infrastructure. Each of us have to make non-monetary value judgements on those intangible benefits. For me it is well worth it.

Having lived through the gas crisis in the 1970's (it force my brother in to bankrupcy with his over the road truck), I have been a strong advocate of alcohol fuels for about 33 years. I feel we are finally at a point where essential conditions are in place to actually move toward what Brazil did at that time, and I am willing to do my share to increase alcohol fuel sales to provide the incentive to the investors who will build the plants. " hotrod

Amen to that brother!!.... I think this forum reflects these feelings
greatly and is carrying on this view in most all our vehicles that are being fully or partially alcohol fueled!!!

P.S. 1outlaw - where in WI can we find your stations when they come online. Any more around the Madison area...... hope we get more soon...
for availabilitys sake....

1outlaw · Joined: 15 Feb 2006 Posts: 89 Location: Central Wisconsin

Thanks Guys- keep up the work & the sharing of info.

Corn Squeezins- Our sites are branded Renew and today they are at Waupun, Berlin (21&49), Oshkosh, & Howard. Next sites will be Cedar Grove, Oostberg, & Wautoma. We will be building a new 120 Mil gal plant north of Jefferson over next 2 years and will likely lead this with a station in that area. We want to be in Madison and Milwaukee really bad so many consumers can learn first-hand ethanol is not what oil boys would like you to believe--- our problem with those cities is affordable clean land acquisition (got ideas for sites?) Our company name is Utica Energy out of Oshkosh.

Badger Ethanol in Monroe is also dedicated to offer and promote a properly priced E85 but only has one station in it's hometown.

While I am not a car wizz I can be of assistance if you folks need more detail on the 6 variations out there on E85 (Due to seasons & blendstock) or other specifications.