E85Forum.com

novaz · Joined: 05 Nov 2009 Posts: 11 Location: Seattle

Just finished testing some E85 and was surprised to see it at
test #1 =86.42
test #2 =84.48
I realise that both of these are good results Very Happy

my query is for it to change 2points with in 1/2 hour from the same batch is that normal I am filling 5 gallon plastic race cans from the same source that was testing at 81-82around xmas.
second question is why is distilled wated preferred is it because of metal particles affecting the%
Roy

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

Roy - I strongly suspect that this was only the variability of the test itself. The alcohol test using the water method is from my experience accurate +2 to -2 when done carefully. If you were using the Kent Moore tester then time/air exposure is absolutely critical- I have seen car dealer shops blow the accuracy by 10 to even 15 % if they did not follow procedures perfectly.
I find our state test lab using VERY expensive equip off by 2-5% due to the fact they have to do a dilution method. The only truly accurate test that is simple and repeatable is in a lab using the Karl Fischer analysis method.

The first method, done well, is plenty accurate for normal high performance applications. Just do not expect perfection in the test itself because water temp, fuel temp, sample size, sample collection, and measurements are critical to even stay within the above tolerance.

Distilled water would be best due to possible secondary bonds to the hydrocarbons- if the bond is strong enough it might not be enough for the last % to release and go with the water- at least that would be my theory.
I do not generally bother with using distilled however because I have the lab for quality control and only use the water test in the field as a quick analysis.

novaz · Joined: 05 Nov 2009 Posts: 11 Location: Seattle

Thank you
I was really carefull about my test equipment in cleaning and drying
its a good sign that my results were within what maybe expected
appreciate your reply Very Happy

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

Correction- I must have been asleep on my last post;

The Karl Fischer test is for water only-- I knew better because this is the test we have going around the clock in our lab. Rolling Eyes

440Jim · Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 188

I do the water test on the batches I buy.
If you are careful, 1-2 percent error is in line. It is easy to be off by 3-4 percent.
I use distilled water to try and eliminate variables.

How much water/E85 did you mix? ie 100 ml total
What is the graduation on the container you use? ie 1 ml, 0.5 ml, 0.1 ml

novaz · Joined: 05 Nov 2009 Posts: 11 Location: Seattle

I just purchased some more E85 at the same station as previous in this post and when i tested it this morning there is hardly any seperation and its very milky looking came out as E94
temp of fuel and water was at 56*
i gave it a really good inverted shaking am concerned about this result i am going to do a second sample .
any ideas
Thanks
Roy

novaz · Joined: 05 Nov 2009 Posts: 11 Location: Seattle

Hi Jim
I am using the same test glass as in your picture my testing is 50m of e85 and 48m of water I have the second test going now i usually dont see as well a defined lower miniscus .
Thanks Roy

novaz · Joined: 05 Nov 2009 Posts: 11 Location: Seattle

Heres the second test now i am really confused I used the same amounts and temperature from a different container of the same 25 gallons i purchased

http://www.glowfoto.com/users3/dnewnova/image.php?iid=3373394&aid=60083&offset=0

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

The posted picture shows a normal "look" for 76.5% ethanol if I could see the posted graduated cylinder's miniscus well enough due to camera angle.

2.1+1.94(97 bottom of top miniscus-86 bottom of lower miniscus)=23.44
100-23.44= 76.56%

Pretty normal for an "up north" station that just got it's first load of Spring Blend E85-- if that was your source.

I am assuming that you premeasured separately 48 ml of water, put 50 ml of E85 to be tested into the cylinder, THEN added the premeasured water last.

http://iqlearningsystems.com/ethanol/downloads/E85test.pdf

Not sure what happened to you on the first test you ran.

novaz · Joined: 05 Nov 2009 Posts: 11 Location: Seattle

Thanks for the reply
that was the link i used to perform all my tests
so last night i took some E85 from my fuel cell that was from the very first batch i had purchased it came out at E84
maybe this latest batch was a mix .
questions I have are how important is the wait time is longer more accurate when testing i usually give it the 15 mins per procedure
also in all my tests i cant usually see a defined lower miniscus in the lower level is this me or something to do with the mix .
additionally how far off from E85 can i be before changing jets is required .
I appreciate your help.

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

15 minutes should be adequate except in very warm fuel. Not sure about the color of the fuel from the pic's but 440jim's gasoline portion is very yellow- indicative of conventional gasoline. Your's however appear to be a less colored (possibly ultra low sulfur) gasoline which makes finding the line more of a challenge. I use natural gasoline in mine which is the exact color of ethanol (water clear) and I can only see the line in glass (which you are using). It would be interesting to find out what type of gas they are using to make E85 in your area and how that might influence this type of test. Your whole area is reformulated correct? I wonder too if your state allows more than 1/2 of 1% methanol in it's gasoline. In the photo you did post- the miniscus was very clearly defined- how long did that sample sit prior to photo?

I'll leave the jetting questions to Mark or any of the other carb experts.

novaz · Joined: 05 Nov 2009 Posts: 11 Location: Seattle

Thanks again
I am in Seattle and we have had no cold snap this year so I am surprised to see the % go down from the first Batch I tested.
I am off to the track this weekend so will be able to see how it performs
hoping to go 9s this year ,I appreciate the help.
Roy