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Sao Paulo Fusion · Joined: 01 Mar 2010 Posts: 4

Hi to all!

Congrats for the great forum. I'll be buying an American Ford Fusion with the Duratec 3.0 FlexFuel engine here in Brazil.

Here, Ford does NOT advertise it's FFV capabilities, perhaps because our ethanol (E100) at pumps is hydrated, or maybe because it'd be confusing to mix it with gasoline to make it E85 compatible.

I assume the Ford engine is designed to handle anhydrous E85. Would using hydrated ethanol (mixed with the right proportion of gasoline) damage the engine?

I say that because Brazilian engines are designed to handle the 4% of water in hydrated ethanol. Would that American engine be able to handle it? Is there a possibility of damaging the engine?

I know it's a pretty picky subject, but I'd welcome any well informed input. If I did´t explain it well enough, please let me know and I'll elaborate more.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. Very Happy

Thumpin455 · Joined: 04 Oct 2008 Posts: 227

As long as it gets enough fuel and doesnt go lean it shouldnt hurt it. Its not the engine you need to worry about anyway, except with the dismal compression ratios in the FFVs they make here you wont get as good of mileage as an engine with higher compression. It wont be a huge difference though. The engine will burn it and it wont damage it provided it isnt running too lean.

There isnt much difference between a fuel system that can handle 10% ethanol and one that can handle He100 provided it isnt over 15% water. With that much water in it you start having trouble with using it for fuel. You have 4% to 8% water correct? That is well within the tolerance I have found using hydrous or E85. I dont pull the little bit of water left after distillation and I wont in the future either. I am running it on old cars (20-40+ years old), the newer cars can handle it and the only real problems are running into injector head room issues and duty cycle limits.

Is every part of your hydrous fuel pumps stainless steel, or are there regular steel or aluminum parts used to build the pumps? I mean the pumps at the fuel stations where you fill up.
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Sao Paulo Fusion · Joined: 01 Mar 2010 Posts: 4

Dear Thumpin455,

Thanks for the great post. I'm not sure whether the pumps here need to use stainless steel (I don´t think they do) but I'll try to check that info for you. What I can say is that our gasoline pumps are exactly the same. Also, despite the corrosion most mechanics and car magazines affirm that engines running ethanol are far cleaner (less carbon residue) and seem newer than gasoline powered ones, when they get to open the blocks. Exhaust systems tend to corrode a bit more with ethanol, though (you can even see water dripping - just a bit - from some cars).

I wonder if you could elaborate more on the injector head room and duty cycle limit issues you've mentioned. What could happen in those scenarios?Also, you recommend not running lean. Is it because the water will remain at the bottom of the tank? And if so, do you believe it'd eventually evaporate?

Since we don´t have E85 here, I was thinking of fueling 10% gasoline first, then 80% E100, then another 10% gasoline just to mix it a bit. (20% gasoline, instead of 15% because our gasoline here is between E20 to E23).

Thanks for your time. Hope my post isn´t confusing.

Thumpin455 · Joined: 04 Oct 2008 Posts: 227

Ethanol doesnt have a problem with water at the bottom of the tank, it bonds with ethanol so you cant get a slug of water like you can with gasoline. The only way to separate ethanol and water is with a still or a molecular sieve.

If the engine doesnt get enough fuel it will run rough, hot, and start to hurt parts. Duty cycle on an injector is how long it can stay open. If you ask it to stay open longer, such as at high RPM high load where you need more fuel like it is at wide open throttle or climbing hills, then the injector wont be able to supply enough fuel. The limited flow would require it to stay open longer and it would never close.

You should be able to go with HE100 in a FFV, its just most around here dont.
_________________
1970 Pontiac GeTOh 455 with a Qjet.
1998 Pontiac Formula LS1 on yeast pee.

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

Sao Paulo Fusion-- The FFV I drive for work is a 2005 Ford Taurus with a 3.0L . However- it is the Vulcan 3.0L which is a 9.7:1 compression. The Duratech 3.0L here in the states is 10:1 compression and 24 valve but was not available in the Taurus as an FFV. A shame since even that tiny bit more compression would have been appreciated. I suspect Ford did this though as the Vulcan was a cheaper choice and was a primary and popular govt and rental fleet car. The Vulcan in this Taurus has 217,400 miles on it now, of which virtually all of the last 200,000 miles, has been E85 (made with annydrous ethanol) --no issues with the fuel systems to date. I do not know what engines and mods Ford is putting into Brazilian spec Fusions.

Your base gas is currently E20 with annhydrous ethanol in Brazil from what I hear- (it may go back to E25 in a few months as ethanol supply rebuilds- right?). Your E100 of course is hydrous-- should you blend and it does phase separate both the ethanol and water go to the bottom and the gas goes to the top- starting at that point may become difficult. From research I have seen with hydrous the most potential for phase sep is at cool/cold temps and down at 5% ethanol/95% gas- if this is true you may never see a phase separation if your hydrous is only 4% water. Even here in the USA the Ford Taurus FFV's ECU's cold start enrichment seems borderline with E85- let alone hydrous E100 which would be on your tank bottom in the event of a phase separation. The automakers here built the FFV's under the E85 standard and as far as I know never programmed the ECU for levels above that.

The E85 dispensers I have here contain a fair amount of aluminum in them and are not nickle plated nor annodized- the aluminum I can see in the filter base looks brand new after 6 years--BUT- again we are using annydrous ethanol and US specification calls for it to be ph neutral to slighly basic plus it must contain corrosion inhibitors. I am completely in the dark about what Brazilian hydrous E100 specs call for- my assumptions would be that it is more aggressive than E98 US spec.

I can pull hydrous (HE100) off the distillation and keep meaning to experiment in my FFV but I just never get it done- I also meant to test hydrous/gasoline blends while it is still cold here but just never get it done either. The Dutch have done a fair amount of promissing work with some hydrous/gas blends that have made me want to test it. Hydrous is a whole lot cheaper to make than annhydrous.

rmay635703 · Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:56 pm Post subject:

I've often wondered why the government figured it would be a better idea to go with e85 rather than e100 hydrous?

Since the intended ethanol (e85) cars had to be redesigned anyway just go hydrous, save 50% on drying and require the e100 cars to have glow plugs.
Add a diesel fuel water separator for those that add gas and off you go.

Despite what manufacturers may claim, glow plugs are NOT that expensive to implement on any normal engine and would allow easy cold starting regardless of fuel type. Also the type of glow plug needed for spark powered ethanol is much smaller than the one required for diesel cold start operation.

Cheers
Ryan

Sao Paulo Fusion · Joined: 01 Mar 2010 Posts: 4

I'm awfully glad to head such goo insight here. Thank you all.

Thumpin455, thanks for the clarification. I'll be careful to avoid these problems.

Alcohol, the V6 engine here is the same as in the US - the 3.0 Duratec (246hp) and Ford does not announce it as Flex Fuel capable. That made me wonder whether they were concerned about: 1- hydrous alcohol, 2 - people being unable to calculate how much gas to mix with E100 or 3 - they were just lazy.

My point in using ethanol (despite the ecological questions) is because it is much cheaper here (sort of subsidized) and because I've heard from several mechanics that despite being more corrosive than gasoline, it keeps the engine cleaner for longer periods.

There's quite a bit of corruption in Brazil, so fuel quality can vary a lot from station to station. Due to adulterated gasoline, I'll have to take my Mom's '07 Citroen C5 (with only 10.000Km) for an expensive service: the block is full of carbon residue, making the engine weak and unresponsive (especially when not warm). I'd like to avoid that with the Fusion.

Gas here is either E20 or 25 with anhydrous (to make it suitable for older vehicles) like you said.

But now I'm worried about what you said: phase separation. I must conclude "mixing" gasoline and E100 won´t be as easy as I thought, right? Would that water directly feed through the injection system?

I'm not so worried about the temperature. We rarely have temps below 8 degrees Celsius, but I am worried about damaging the ECU, etc.

As far as I know, E100 Hydrated is more aggressive than the American E85. Also, I believe there are no corrosion inhibitors added. Back in the 80's, early 90's corrosion was more common (especially in exhaust systems) but I haven´t heard much about it nowadays. The new flex fuel engines here have only been around since 2006 -too early to notice, maybe.

Makes have become good at using different metal leagues in engines and more resistant materials in Brazilian engines for they know our fuel varies a lot in quality. I just have the impression Ford's American engine may be "less resistant" just because E85 there is a lot more stable. It bothers me that Ford doesn´t even announce the engine as FFV capable...Who knows?

rmay635703, Perhaps because compression rates for these Brazilian Flex Fuel engines must be higher. I don´t know much about mechanics, but what I hear is that gasoline burning isn´t as effective on these engines. Just because they need to find a "neutral ground" between both fuels, not burning any of the two to the full extent. Most people complain Flex engines consume more gasoline than the similiar gasoline only engines (Honda Civic owners complain a lot).

Ford has just released here the FlexFuel Focus (Duratec 2.0). I'll see how it compares with the previous (same engine, gas only) Focus.

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

"I've often wondered why the government figured it would be a better idea to go with e85 rather than e100 hydrous? "

A plot by oil/automakers to make the ethanol more expensive and require that it be blended in oil terminals to get the gasoline while making the vehicle slightly cheaper-LOL ! (of course they forgot about blender pumps and plant blend natural gasoline) Laughing

Actually it is colder here than Brazil so there was some justification initially. However with the advent of heated injectors this may be less important. Another consideration is that hydrous (HE100) may be a bit more aggressive and automakers MIGHT have had to upgrade the more than minimal changes we have here. Further- I suspect the American consumer could have different thoughts about "operatibility"-- ie waiting for glow plug on start, the remote potential for phase sep going from HE100 to a E0 gas down around < a 5% ethanol tank blend (remember Brazil is no less than 20% ethanol which wipes out that concern).

Yes Ryan- We did get saddled with perceptions, desire for cost control in making FFVs, very possibly a lot of input from API to keep the product oil related and away from the realm of ease for backyard still operators, and maybe even the govt itself from a road tax collection standpoint, and more -- thus we do pay for all this when we use E85. Frankly I would have liked a dedicated hydrous ethanol engine - but realize that this would have been initially a low production engine and limited in range when there were few stations- but let's be real- is a CNG, LNG, hydrogen, propane, and to some degree- an electric easy to free roam out of it's home range? At least a HE100 dedicated should be able to also run E85.

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

Sao Paulo Fusion---hey-we have been waiting and waiting for folks to show up here from Brazil and teach us since you have been at it longer. I know a lot of people went down to Brazil to study what you good folks have done- that was the basis for what we know.

The exhaust systems here used to need to be replaced on any fuel type cars about every 5 years. This has greatly improved as automakers upgraded materials (who wants a $500 catalytic converter to fall off in 5 years) and I suspect another thing that really helped was cutting the allowed sulfur content in fuel way down. Ethanol used in cetain engines do seem to generate more exhaust water- the 3.0 L Vulcan in my Taurus can totally block my rear view mirror in the first 3 miles at < 10 degree F.
Yet the Chev Impala's 3.5L are not noticeably different than one burning gas.

Why don't you do a small scale test of a few mixes from 5% HE100/75% E20 (to represent a switch from HE100 to E20 gas) and a 85%HE100/15% E20 blend. Make the blends in very clean lightly sealed glass jars and set out in the shade on a very cool night then look for a layer between pure gas on top and a water/alcool layer (at bottom). If you do not see this in a small sample then you should have it develop in the unseen tank bottom.

If phase separation ever did occur-- (I do not think this is likely--what do your fellow citizens say when they go back and forth with fuels types--this is a mix with the remnants of gas/hydrous !!!!)-- this mix will pass thru the fuel injectors just fine (remember it is not just water either- it is a little water and a lot of ethanol with NO gas. Hard starting or rough run would be the only result. We used to do this on purpose for years- pure gas (E0) cannot absorb and dry water from condensation in a fuel tank- we would go buy "Heet" (either methanol or isopropyl alcohol) to soak up the water and carry it thru the engine- this would have often been phase separated from gas because there was too little alcohol and too much water to bond and carry with the gas. Perhaps you were thinking about diesels-the hole(s) in a gas fuel injector is huge compared to a diesel where the tiny holes could not pass water without sometimes blowing the tip off the injector.

BTW- you will not damage your ECU (computer) by doing what you propose- it merely is telling things what to do.

Sao Paulo Fusion · Joined: 01 Mar 2010 Posts: 4

Alcohol,

Thanks for the great posts and the ECU and water explanation. The glass jar idea is awesome and I'll most likely try it.

I don't know much about mechanics, but you guys let me know whether you'd like any Brazilian info regarding the Pro-Alcool program.

My father had a few ethanol only cars in the 80's (especially the Ford Del Rey 1.6 I4 - a local project inspired on the Euro Ford Granada and two GM A20 pick-up trucks - inline sixes on ethanol) and they were very efficient, even then (the beginning of the program). My grandfather had a VW Voyage too. They behaved very well and had a small button on the dash (you pressed it once before starting up on cold days) and the operation was seemless.

Then, starting in 94, ethanol cars lost their public preference (production crisis, distilleries creating a cartel, etc) until they became very popular again (almost compulsory I should say - non flex cars lose a lot of value) in 2006 with the advent of the FlexFuel chip. More advanced resources, but the principle remains the same, since the late 70's, 80's.

Now ethanol is becoming more expensive (production shortage....or cartel again??) and many folks started fueling with gasoline again. There's a ratio here: if ethanol is less than 30% cheaper then gasoline, then it's not worth it (due to higher consumption).

I'm in the State of Sao Paulo, where most ethanol is produced, so prices are the lowest in the nation. At the northernmost states, almost no one fuels with ethanol - it becomes too expensive there.

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

Dont forget to ask folks who have switched from HE100 to gas to see if they ever had an issue- if there ever was going to be one- that is when it should occur- if ever.

I see reports that Brazil is expecting the next crop to come in at 10% more sugar content and they are predicting both sugar and ethanol supply to grow. That will help ethanol prices ease back. Traders here in "The States" have already been trading on that news and our ethanol plant gate prices have fallen over 10 cents in 2 days. This yield increase in your country will especially have a strong effect if Pakistan and India's sugar supply gets better with their cane and sugar beet yields- it was not just Brazil that was a bit short on yield- those two countries love their sugar for bakery goods and had very poor yields due to poor weather.

Cheers !

Obormot · Joined: 27 Jun 2008 Posts: 44 Location: Ukraine

We using hydrous ethanol.

there is no need to mix it with gasoline at all - you can use small gasoline tank for cold starts only, it is very simple and 1l will be anough for 2-4 weeks.

if in ethanol will be additional water, fuel level sensor can be damaged - by electro chemical corrosion. with 95-96% no problems.

ethanol can react with zink coatings - if it will have water. it can be problem if fuel tank made from metall and have zinc coating - will be created white "dirt", it will fill the fuel filters and fuel lines.

maybe you will need corrosion inhibitor - in very small quantities, about 0.01%.

95-96% ethanol can be meixed with gasoline and mixture not separating if it is not cold.
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Gran Touring Labs · Joined: 18 Nov 2007 Posts: 129

Does knock resistance go down with higher water content?

It turns out I can reuse nitro blends that have sat open and drawn water just by adding a little gas. These little hobby motors don't seem to mind at all.
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Obormot · Joined: 27 Jun 2008 Posts: 44 Location: Ukraine

i think not.

we still can not obtain any knocking on pure hydrous ethanol on standart gasoline engines - without ignition timing modifications and with compresion 9...10 : 1

usually adding water to fuel increasing octane rating by cooling combustion chamber.
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murphinator · Joined: 08 Jan 2010 Posts: 93