E85Forum.com

nelson8708 · Joined: 22 Aug 2008 Posts: 67

I got this sent to me and figured a few of you would be for getting a little higher blend in pump. Go to www.goe15.com and tell them you for a higher ethanol blend. Hopefully this will keep more ethanol plants up a running so e85 doesn't start to disappear.

Dear Ethanol Supporter,

There is one week left for you and other clean fuel proponents to actively support one of the most important issues in the ethanol industry today: increasing the allowed ethanol blend to E15.

This is the most immediate way to grant clean, American-made fuel access to a market currently dominated by the oil industry. The nationwide effort sets the stage for Growth Energy Market Development’s aggressive work to proliferate blender pumps across the country and increase the auto industry’s production of flexible fuel vehicles (FFVs).

The ethanol industry must continue to grow if it is to produce enough product to meet the growing demand that more blender pumps and FFVs will create. Three weeks ago, I sent you an email about the biggest obstacle to our industry’s ability to continue growing: a 30-year old government regulation limiting ethanol to 10 percent of a gallon of gasoline in non-FFVs. In March, Growth Energy took the lead and submitted a request to the EPA on behalf of 54 ethanol producers to increase that limit up to 15 percent. Then last month, the National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition united with Growth Energy to form Growth Energy Market Development.

I’m contacting you again to let you know that there is only one week left to the EPA comment period. If you have already sent your supportive comment to the EPA I’d like to thank you and ask that you encourage your friends and family to do the same by sending them to www.GoE15.com. If you haven’t had a chance to send your comment yet, please take a few minutes tell the EPA how important this decision is for the future of our country.

An immense amount of testing has shown that there is no scientific justification for the 10 percent limit on ethanol. In the past two years, multiple comprehensive studies involving over 100 vehicles, 85 vehicle and engine types, and 33 fuel dispensing units have been completed to evaluate the affects of ethanol-gasoline blends above 10 percent ethanol. These studies include a year-long drivability test and over 5,500 hours of materials compatibility testing. This research all shows that emission control systems are unaffected by a 5 (or in some cases 10) percent increase in ethanol content. For more information about the waiver, see the talking points at www.GoE15.com or see what supportive elected officials had to say by clicking here.

There is only one week left for you to send your supportive comment to the EPA as the public comment period ends July 20. Please send yours today by going to www.GoE15.com.

Thanks for your support of the ethanol industry!

Phil Lampert
Vice President
Growth Energy, Market Development
_________________
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440Jim · Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 188

What do members think?
I am wondering if the E15 should not be allowed, and instead push E-85 more (flex fuel vechicles, and high compression dedicated E-85). E15 would just drive up ethanol prices and make my favorite hot rod fuel (E-85) more expensive.

Promoting E15 will just delay stations from carrying E-85, and that will discourage buying E-85 fueled vehicles. I would rather see regulation to make a high percentage of all vehicles E-85 capable. This will get stations to start carrying E-85.

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

I am for E15 Jim. While I do not plan to offer E15 at my blender pumps, I do offer E20 and have been muzzled by the EPA. I cannot promote it as a gasoline substitute for non-ffvs. Given that the average consumer will not use what I cannot recommend. I do not see E15 going real far except with some independents. Majors will fight it tooth and nail because it "infringes" on their turf. Understand E15 will be the VOLUNTARY ceiling for gasoline in standard vehicles. As such it will only be offered by independents in the midwest where the supply is so great. Nearly 20% of ethanol plant capacity is idled right now- E15 will not move more than maybe 1% more ethanol at the most nationwide. E85 nationwide only uses about 1% of the ethanol produced. This will have no effect on E85 prices except if something is not done soon to move more ethanol then you can count on oil owning more ethanol plants and you can kiss E85 goodby. Oil companies do not want E85 as it can be independently supplied thus they would like it dead. The ethanol in E10 they also do not like but the control it's distribution and can tack on 30-75 cents margin thus they play along.

I am totally on the same page with you on dedicated E85 engines and smaller turbo flex- but if ethanol plant ownership transfers to the likes of Valero it will never happen. Right now you can buy ethanol plants for 10-35 cents on the dollar- that is the game right now- buy it and control how it gets distributed.

Just in the news today the automakers came out against a mandate to make E85 vehicles. Likewise 6 legislators (you can guess most of the states) also bucked it. Like you I am for such a mandate but it may not pass. Keep in mind that even if they make 100% FFV's the consumer's experience may not be good with hurried up, cheap FFV's. We certainly need better FFV's such as smaller engined turbo'ed stuff that has great power on E85 but is detuned to run gas- this would be better than the gas optimized FFV's we have now. Let Joe drive such a thing on E85 and then he can barely pass on gas and feelings might be different. Laughing

Billyk · Joined: 05 Feb 2009 Posts: 11 Location: southwestern Pa

I agree it is scary if the ethanol industry gets over taken by the Oil industry. An increase in the number of E85 pumps outside the Midwest "could" boost sales as would more FFV from the automakers. There doesn't seem to be any quick and easy solution to boost E85 useage.

440Jim · Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 188

440Jim · Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 188

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

Jim wrote;

" E15 is a short term band aid to the current economic problems of the ethanol industry. Once the economy picks up and oil/gas prices climb back to an expected $3/gallon, ethanol will again be competitive. I don't believe in the oil company conspiracy theory. I believe in free market supply and demand with overarching govt regulation (not control). "

I would have agreed with you until I put up my first E85 pump and began to find pressure coming from all sides- places I could not put my finger on. After 20 years in the oil business I know how they are good at keeping their name off of publicity and have to ability to speak through others. I also worked hard for months to get E85 pumps into "branded" stations and saw the roadblocks put up on their wholesale distributors. This was also documented by certain govt employees. Access to market is key- without it you will never see the light of day for cellulosic plants which are more expensive at this time than phase 1 corn plants. E15 is voluntary but yes- as people learn it works just fine in their cars it will grow and eventually become bigger than the 1% of ethanol production I suggest. Right now though there is not one major with refinery capabilities that desire to see a growth in ethanol as it further cuts the 20-50 cent refinery margins since gasoline is the waste product where components of gasoline are dumped when they cannot be moved thru the petro-chem stream. To have more ethanol in the market means the the lid is on distillates production if the gas cannot gain high margin (about 25 gal gas comes for evey gal of diesel out of the 42 gal crude barrel as typical). For several years now the east coast has benefited from low gas prices because it takes in gasoline from Europe where they went to diesel.
Thus- majors do not want even more ethanol and even more diesel.

Higher ethanol in gasoline eventually allows cheap octane in gas and automakers can work up compression not only in standard cars but also in base FFV's.

I like Brazil's structure best. Someday I see them going to all hydrous ethanol since there is no E0 to drive phase separation. This would save tons of energy and added cost for dehydration.

Eric68 · Joined: 01 Nov 2007 Posts: 331

Vehicles optimized for E85 are the only way IMO that E85 will be able to make it on its own for the long haul. Cost / benefit analysis of E85 as it is now in a regular FFV (optimized for gas) just doesn't work out in favor of E85 as a more cost effective option.

Tax breaks and E15 mandates just don't do it in my opinion. There must be a consumer demand for ethanol; aside from tree huggers and racers that like it as cheap, high octane fuel there really is no market with E85 priced 30 - 50 cents less than gasoline.

Now if we build vehicles that are optimized for E85 and there are enough E85 pumps around to support them, then we have something. The MPG comes up and the cost per mile starts to make more sense. Then we will have consumer demand for ethanol.

Just my opinion.
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Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

I REPEAT-- the request of EPA for E15 is NOT a mandate- only a voluntary ceiling. It is only to allow folks to go up to 15% but without any requirement above the current RFS.

I agree with the E85 optimized desire- totally. However- have you seen one yet put out by an automaker yet in the US market? I am afraid I will be dead and gone before this comes about.

How do you propose we get more E85 pumps?

Tax breaks were meant to help establish new fuels and infrastructure. Unfortunately most is now going to oil companies for the low ethanol content they are already required to use by the renewable fuels standard. I say save that money and instead reward blending for any level above the minimum required--from E11 - E85. This would save 99% of the "subsidy" today and allow it to used to to incentivize pumps, usage, and whatever infrastructure is needed.