E85Forum.com

Volvo-Berti · Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 16 Location: Germany

hi, i am a newbie to test ethanol instead of gas or as an additive. is it possible to mix white spirits (=ethanol 94% approx.vol.concentration?) with fuel without risks?

background: in germany actually is no gas station, which sells E85. so all ethanol users are experimenters, more or less.

i have tested mixing 95 octane fuel with ethanol 94% 5 ml each, no problems occured, even adding one or two drops of water.

is there anyone who has tested similar alcohols or qualities?

thx
regards
Volvo-Berti

p.s. apologize for my english
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greets
Berti

Spaceman · Joined: 11 Aug 2005 Posts: 2

Volvo- berti, I have been studing the process of producing ethanol for my own personal fuel and in all of my reading it sounds like the ethanol needs to be 99% before you mix it with gasoline. I do believe that the water in the ethanol causes problems in the long them storage of the fuel blend. So, I guess that the answer to your question is that in order to mix the two you need to dehydrate the ethanol first. Good Luck. Jaysin

Edi · Joined: 11 Sep 2005 Posts: 14 Location: Germany

I have often mixed 96 % Ethanol with gasoline in different percents, but never had problems. Only when I take ethanol about 94 % or smaller amounts, the mixture with gasoline separates.
I drive with different mixtures of 96 % ethanol and gasoline and there are no problems with driving, only I take too much ethanol inside, but this problem is because I have my car in no way changed.

Volvo-Berti · Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 16 Location: Germany

moin Edi, ahh, another German who likes driving with ethanol.
Very Happy

most of the available ethanols are declared as "94% minimum". as i wrote in my mixture tests there was no separation of the ethanol, but it may be only a question of time?

my problem is even to get 96% ethanol, not talking about a good price.

has anyone knowledge how i can dry my 94% ethanol without a destillation? there must be a solution to dehydrate it up to 96%
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greets
Berti

Edi · Joined: 11 Sep 2005 Posts: 14 Location: Germany

You can dry to dehydrate it a little bit, but not till 100 % with kaliumcarbonate, but this is after my opion not necesarry. I had once time very cheap ethanol about 85 % and dehydrate it till 95 or 96 %. driving with that was no problem.
Now I look for a special tenside from BASF to take inside a ethanol-water-gasoline mixture to try if that can make a mikro emulsion if too much water come inside the ethanol-gasoline mixture. With other tensides that goes very good and the seperation when I take a little bit water inside this mixture goes immediately away. But there is a tenside or emulsifier needed which burns also very good in a motor.

PumpingE85 · Joined: 19 Jun 2005 Posts: 25

In lower level ethanol-blended gasoline, the addition of water can cause phase separation. Ethanol and gasoline are completely miscible. However, ethanol has more of an affinity for water than gasoline. In a low ethanol blend, like E10, if enough water contaminates the fuel (~0.5%), it will separate from the gasoline and cause mess in your tank. That's why it is important to have clean equipment to start with and to handle fuels properly (no leaks in the lids).

In old gasoline tanks, the water and gross sludge just sits on the bottom while the gasoline floats above. Station owners clean their systems before selling ethanol-blended fuels (then, the ethanol keeps them clean).

With high-blends, like E85, phase separation will not occur unless a lot of water is added. I've seen E85 with 10% to 15% water that did not separate. It did not run very well, but, at least, it burned through and I did not have to have my fuel tank pumped out.

In all cases (as with any fuel/fuel system), proper handling and operation should be used to prevent water contamination. It is NOT that difficult to do so.

Volvo-Berti · Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 16 Location: Germany

hm, what does that me to me?

actually i drive within a mix of E35 app. with a low level ethanol of 94%.

does that mean that i have to drive until my gas tank is empty, before i can fill up with gas? even if i fill in a quantity of enough gas to reach E20 or E10, the ethanol/water can separate??

i hope not Rolling Eyes

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greets
Berti

PumpingE85 · Joined: 19 Jun 2005 Posts: 25

No, Sir!

I only meant that water contamination would act differently with different blends of ethanol-gasoline.

If you've been running blends of ethanol through your car's tank, your system is likely pretty clean.

This is more of an issue for fuel stations that may not be "doing the right thing."

BURNALCOHOL · Joined: 19 Oct 2005 Posts: 50 Location: Raymond,NE

To dry ethanol with out distilling you use Zeolyle Type 3A. Distilling will only get about that percentage out anyway. The distillers use a molecular sieve of Zeolyle to do the rest.

Look at this sight for more details under the "Drying the alcohol and blending it with gasoline" parragragh:

http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id36.html
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Jeremy Nicholls

Volvo-Berti · Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 16 Location: Germany

drying ethanol with mol sieve is not possible to me, i cannot get mol sieve anywhere and drying the sieve is to expensive.

@PumpingE85
the less alcohol i have in my mixture, the more probs could be, if the water part is to high.

catching the water is possible by adding iso-propanol, ~ 1-2%.
to let the engine start easier during cold periods, adding a little acetone (max. 1-2%) will help
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greets
Berti

Edi · Joined: 11 Sep 2005 Posts: 14 Location: Germany

I have dryed ethanol with zeolith mol sieve. But only small amounts, that are not enough for gasolin. It makes too much work to do that with greater amounts.

In Germany is a producer:

http://www.cwk-bk.de/CWK/pages/ms/ms_index.html

Better sell 100 % Ethanol. When somebody sell about 1000 or more L its not so expensive.