E85Forum.com

hotrod · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 872 Location: Colorado

Just an FYI --

I recently found and added a bit to an excellent entry on E85 in the wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

Someone else posted the original article -- just wondering if some one on this board did the initial posting.

I also added a link pointing to this forum.

The international members here may want to translate and echo the e85 article, in their native language edition of the wikipedia with links to their local language as well.

Larry

Gary · Joined: 04 Oct 2005 Posts: 7 Location: Florida

Larry,

Yes. I put in a good bit of the E85 Wikipedia article, but there was already a short E85 entry when I started.

Price of E85 in Florida is $2.61.9 versus a gasoline price of $2.79.9. At this small discount, it doesn't pay to run E85 in a blended mix with gasoline. Price was supposed to drop to $2.20 a gallon for E85 on the latest truck load, but it didn't.

-- Gary

hotrod · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 872 Location: Colorado

Gary :

I see you just registered with this forum --- Not sure if you've been hanging out here as a guest in the past. -- in any case glad to know who was involved in that entry.

Although the wikipedia is generally not considered authoritative by academic standards it does have lots of useful info and I find it useful to get pointers to info I have not been able to chase down by other means. The user base is so broad you get information or pointers to information in a condensed form.

It will probably drive a lot of interested people to other sources linked in the E85 entry that they either could not or would not be likely to find on their own.

Larry

Lgodave · Joined: 01 Sep 2005 Posts: 28 Location: WI

Hi,

Thanks for posting the Wikipedia link on E85. It should probably become part of a FAQ reference for this forum.

It answered a lot of questions I had, that would have taken awhile to answer seaching and requesting info. from this forum...

There is one part of the E85 entry that I was actually going to ask the forum about, before I'd ever read the Wikipedia entry. What is the actual corrosive properties of E10 vs E85 (and it's various other blends (Say E20/E30/...).

The E85 entry says
"Though there is no appreciable difference in the corrosive properties between E10 and a 50:50 blend of gasoline and E85 (47.5% ethanol), operation with more than 10% ethanol has never been recommended by car manufacturers in non-FFVs"

This would certainly make it sound as if MOST E10 compatible vehicles would then be able to run E20/E30 blends without much fear of Fuel System Failures and OBDII vehicles would be able to adapt to the higher % of Ethanol too.

Where can we find actual data on the Corrosive properties of Ethanol to backup the claim that E10 and E47 are basicly the same involving corrosion. The other part would be if there is other E10/E47 differences that would still negatively impact the Fuel System of a typical E10 vehicle.

Gary · Joined: 04 Oct 2005 Posts: 7 Location: Florida

specialgreen · Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:17 pm Post subject:

I had just been riding the Wikipedia entry for synfuel before seeing this post. Thanks for the link! I edited the link from "e85.specialgreen.com" (this site's original name") to www.e85forum.com (the one you see at the top of this page Wink

).

Every now and then, I think about the need to post some content which doesn't really fit the forum/posting model. On another forum I frequent, the admins created a forum called "FAQs". Each topic is supposed to be one long post: a complete article. You can post a reply to an article with additions or comments, and the maintainer of that topic incorporates your suggestions (or not) as he sees fit. But it does suffer from lack of attention, and the replies don't get deleted, leaving the topic long and confusing. The positive side is that it is somewhat regulated (although I haven't seen the Wikipedia abused before).

I'll look at making a Sticky thread with links to outside resources, and point to the Wiki.

Thanks again!

Lgodave · Joined: 01 Sep 2005 Posts: 28 Location: WI

Hi Gary,

RE: "corrosion and engine wear phenomena" of E85/High blend Ethanol

The comments about 1% water content causing all kinds of damage makes sense, but it doesn't seem to detail the kinds of chances of this happening in real life. Say at an actual E85 station.

This information certainly reduces the chances of people taking up the "Home Brew" Ethanol route. The chances of Water impurities in home made ethanol seems much more likely.

I suspect getting water in your tank when filling with Gasoline would cause much the same problem. However, is the risk of this kind of water damage happening more/less likely with Ethanol compared to Gasoline?

specialgreen · Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 pm Post subject:

The Wiki says that FFVs get about 30% less MPG on E-85. For my post http://e85forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=8 , I checked the Dept. of Energy tests of fuel efficiency (gasoline versus E-85) for 2004 model-yearl FFVs. I averaged the relative MPG for all the vehicles listed, and came-out with a number very close to 75%.

hotrod · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 872 Location: Colorado

Water in the gas tank (of the car) is not much of a problem if you run alcohol fuel blends because the fuel picks up trace moisture and carries it out of the tank.

I've seen real world fuel milage number for the FFV that are much better than the "official" tests. I suspect it has a lot to do with model year and how the person drives on a day to day basis. There is one fleet that reports only a 7% milage drop.

On my personal car (not FFV) if I run 100% E85 I can get over 90% of the gasoline fuel milage in the winter time.

Larry

specialgreen · Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 10:35 am Post subject:

In old leaky underground fuel tanks, the fuel deliverer can test for water using a dipping stick and water-sensitive compound (e.g. Dayco Water Finder). If more than (say) an inch of water is found on the bottom, then the water can be pumped out. But with E-85, if stratification occurred, it would be harder to test for. The water could be diluted 1:99 in the alcohol, so the testing compound probably wouldn't show a change in color. The result may be that contaminated E-85 might be dispensed to cars, either as gasoline from the top of the tank (no problem) or as 99% ethanol, 1% water (problems!).

So it makes sense to have a higher standard for E-85 fuel tanks. Are there new ways to test for water contamination in E-85?

Gary · Joined: 04 Oct 2005 Posts: 7 Location: Florida

Gary · Joined: 04 Oct 2005 Posts: 7 Location: Florida

hotrod · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 872 Location: Colorado

Here in Colorado where we have had ethanol blends for decades water in the station fuel tanks is actually less of an issue than it used to be. The ethanol in the fuel blend pickups up trace amounts of moisture and carries it out of the tank in real time, so it never has a chance to accumulate.

On a tank full of just gasoline there is no way for water to get out of the tank once it condenses other than pumping.

At 60 degrees F, water can be absorbed by a blend of 90%gasoline and 10% ethanol up to a content of 0.5 volume percent before it will phase separate.

If you move 5000 gallons of fuel with a 10% ethanol mix in it through a ground fuel tank. That fuel, can safely pickup and carry about 0.5% of that amount in water at moderate temperatures. So when it is warm and the humidity is highest, one load of 5000 gallons of 10% ethanol fuel can carry over 25 gallons of water out of the tank.

Continuous use of small amounts of alcohol creates a self cleaning system once the tank is properly cleaned and prepped.

As pointed out here:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/rfgnonrd.htm

"Phase Separation: Years of experience on essentially identical fuels have resulted in this concern being minimized. Since gasoline and water do not mix, even small amounts of water in pure gasoline will result in a separate phase of water in a fuel tank which, if pumped into the engine, could cause damage. The oxygenated gasolines, primarily the alcohol blends, will tend to dry out fuel tanks by blending with the water allowing it to be combusted in the engine. This is the same principal behind the "dry gas" additives sold over the counter to prevent water in fuel from causing engine problems. Only with comparatively large amounts of water in alcohol-blended gasoline will a separate alcohol/water phase occur. Many manufacturers have specific recommendations for preparing equipment for storage during the off-season, especially if the equipment has been fueled with alcohol fuels. "

http://www.ec.gc.ca/transport/publications/ethgas/ethgas4.htm

4.4 Effect of Ethanol on Fuel Economy

The differences in the heating values between gasoline and ethanol, as shown in Table 8, would result in a theoretical decrease in fuel economy for ethanol/gasoline blends in the 2% to 3% range when compared to gasoline.

Table 8: Theoretically Expected Effect of Ethanol on Fuel -Economy * Weight % Oxygen Volume % Ethanol Volume % Gasoline Energy of 1 gal of fuel, Btu/gal % Reduction Compared to Gasoline

Code:

O2% Etoh% Gas % BTU/gal? % reduction
0 0 100.0 114,000 -
2.0 5.7 94.3 111,834 1.9
2.7 7.7 92.3 111,074 2.6
3.5 10.0 90.0 110,200 3.3

* Heating value of Ethanol is taken as 76,000 (Btu/gal)

Because of its higher hydrogen to carbon ratio, ethanol produces a greater volume of gases per unit of energy burned than gasoline. This leads to higher mean cylinder pressures and more work performed during the expansion stroke. Ethanol also has a much higher heat of vaporization than gasoline. As the liquid fuel evaporates in the air stream being charged to the engine, the high heat of vaporization cools the air, allowing more mass to be drawn into the cylinder. This increases the power produced from a given engine size.

Therefore, when burned in a gasoline-optimized engine, ethanol/gasoline blends will produce an increase in the volume of combustion products, and the effect of charge-air cooling. The combined effect of these will result in an efficiency increase of about 1 to 2 percent. Hence the overall practical fuel economy reduction for E10 is expected to be very small compared to gasoline.

" 4.5 Water Solubility Phase Separation

Separation of a single phase gasoline into a "gasoline phase" and a "water phase" can occur when too much water is introduced into the fuel tank. Water contamination is most commonly caused by improper fuel storage practices at the fuel distribution or retail level, or the accidental introduction of water during vehicle refueling. Water has a higher density than gasoline, so if water separates, it will form a layer below the gasoline. Because most engines obtain their fuel from at, or near, the bottom of the fuel tank, engines will not run once the water phase separates.

Non-oxygenated gasolines can absorb only very small amounts of water before phase separation occurs. Ethanol/Gasoline blends, due to ethanol's greater affinity with water, can absorb significantly more water without phase separation occurring than gasoline. Ethanol blends can actually dry out tanks by absorbing the water and allowing it to be drawn harmlessly into the engine with the gasoline. If, however, too much water is introduced into an ethanol blend, the water and most of the ethanol will separate from the gasoline and the remaining ethanol. The amount of water that can be absorbed by ethanol/gasoline blends without phase separation, varies from 0.3 to 0.5 volume percent, depending on temperature, aromatics and ethanol content (21). If phase separation were to occur, the ethanol/water mixture would be drawn into the engine and the engine would most likely stop.

Some vehicle manufacturers have expressed concern that ethanol/gasoline blends might absorb water vapor from the atmosphere, leading to phase separation. Such problems are of greater concern for engines with open-vented fuel tanks that are operated in humid environments, such as marine engines. Based on the prolonged experience of using 10% ethanol/gasoline blends, the blends are no more susceptible to phase separation than non-oxygenated gasolines. "

Additional information on materials compatibility:

http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/motorgas/4_oxygenated-gasoline/pg2.asp

" Material Compatibility Some fuel system metal components will rust or corrode in the presence of water or acidic compounds. The additional water dissolved in oxygenated gasolines does not cause rusting or corrosion, but water from the phase separation of gasoline oxygenated with ethanol will, given time.

Oxygenates can swell and soften natural and some synthetic rubbers (elastomers). Oxygenated gasolines affect elastomers less, the extent of which also depends on the hydrocarbon chemistry of the gasoline, particularly the aromatics content. The effect is of potential concern because fuel systems contain elastomers in hoses, connectors ("O" rings), valves and diaphragms. The elastomeric materials used in today's vehicles in the U.S. have been selected to be compatible with oxygenated gasolines. Owner's manuals approve the use of gasoline oxygenated with 10 vol % ethanol or 15 vol % MTBE.(The compatibility of the other ethers is the same as that of MTBE.)

Automobile manufacturers upgraded their fuel system elastomers at different times. Elastomers in pre-1975 U.S. vehicles may be sensitive to oxygenated and high-aromatics gasolines. Elastomers in 1975 to 1980 vehicles were upgraded but not to the same extent as in later models.2
Footnotes

2 Changes in Gasoline II, Downstream Alternatives, Inc., Bremen, Indiana.
Elastomer compatibility in other parts of the world may not be the same as in the U.S.

ChevronTexaco's experience is that there is not a significant compatibility problem between oxygenated gasolines and elastomers in older U.S. cars. There was not an increase in problems when oxygenated gasoline was introduced in 39 metropolitan areas in the winter of 1992. This held true for the Western states, which tend to have more older cars in their vehicle populations and for areas where different oxygenates were used (MTBE throughout California; ethanol in Portland, Oregon and Seattle/Tacoma, Washington. "

Larry

Gary · Joined: 04 Oct 2005 Posts: 7 Location: Florida

BURNALCOHOL · Joined: 19 Oct 2005 Posts: 50 Location: Raymond,NE

I posted a few comments and corrections in wikipedia. I also posted a note to the Charles 803 still web sights http://www.alcohol4fuel.com/index.html
discussion group. http://lists.topica.com/lists/robertwarren/read about it.

Great group you got here! Good comments!
_________________
Jeremy Nicholls