E85Forum.com

CARS · Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 62 Location: Comfrey MN

Hello everyone,
I was in a discussion on another forum about LP conversions and many of us were under the impression that conversions were illegal since it changes the emmisions that the certain vehicle was intended to produce.
One guy stated that it is not entirely true, conversions are legal if the government has specified the fuel for alternate use.
Here is the site for authorized fuels:
www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/epact/about/epact_fuels.shtml
One more thing that was pointed out to me was that IL actually pays up to $4000.00 for alternate fuel conversions!!! of course this means nothing to me other than I need to write the people in the MN system, but here is a map, click on your state and see what incentives are availible to you:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/laws/incen_laws.html
Lets discuss!!!
_________________
Chris'
Autobody
Restoration
Service

specialgreen · Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:11 pm Post subject:

I don't think they are illegal. But the ways that they can be legally done are pretty limited.

EPA's 1974 "Mobile Source Enforcement Memorandum 1A" defined how to convert, without violating the anti-tampering rules. The Memo had an addendum that listed three ways a company can show that it's conversion is clean. Option 1 is for the company to get a Certificate of Conformity; #2 is to get the equivalent CARB certificate; #3 was relating to aftermarket retrofit kits, but that option expired in 2002.

So I think that to legally convert a car, you need to have a Certificate of Conformity (or the California equivalent). It looks to me like the Certificate of Conformity is issued for a single model of car. To get one, you need to apply your conversion to a car or truck; then drop-off the modified car at the EPA, along with $23,731 in unmarked bills. A year later, they will tell you whether or not you got a certificate to apply your modification to that one car model. I think they'll let you come pick up your car, too.

See http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/afv/memo1a.html

PumpingE85 · Joined: 19 Jun 2005 Posts: 25

It is not legal in the United States to sell vehicle conversion kits unless they have been tested and certified by the US Environmental Protection Agency. In Sept 1997, USEPA issued Memorandum 1A, which restricted the aftermarket conversion industry. This was in answer to shoddy work done by a few LPG and CNG converters. As it turned out, the conversions were worse polluters than the original gasoline engines.

At that time, they did not have E85 in mind -- but, nonetheless, it has impacted E85.

The testing is intensive (50,000- and 100,000-mile ??) and I understand it would be quite expensive to certify each engine platform.

No, you can't sell the FlexTeks made in Brazil.

CARS · Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 62 Location: Comfrey MN

So...
What kind of trouble could you get into by converting your vehicle, for personal use, over to E85, L.P., steam Wink

, etc.
In the states that have E85 are there any visual checks like in CA? (whick I assume is not a big E85 state) I know I have never done more than show my DL ,proof of insurance (they don't even ask for that anymore) and pay my fee to get my tabs.
Are we fussing over nothing by thinking we will get in trouble for using an alternate fuel?
_________________
Chris'
Autobody
Restoration
Service

specialgreen · Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 7:37 am Post subject:

Back when Minnesota had emissions testing (under Gov. Arne Carlson), excessive emissions might get caught during inspection. Even then, the conversion is not obvious enough to show evidence of "tampering".

But if you had a fuel-injected car, and had increased the flow of the system (bigger injectors and/or greater fuel pressure), then you'd probably pass those tests anyways. If you had not done a thorough job converting a carbureted car, then it might not pass (same as if you did a poor job tuning it for gasoline).

In Minnesota, this is not an issue, since there is no testing or inspection anymore. In other states which do test, I would think that the emissions would only be in violation if the conversion wasn't done with care. In fact, back when Minnesota was testing cars, I remember hearing of people taking street rods (tuned to run rich on gasoline), and switching to E-10 (10% ethanol) to help lean-out the mixture a bit and pass the test.