E85Forum.com

MB190 · Joined: 22 Oct 2006 Posts: 13

hello to all users!!

i am new on forum and interessted in conversions on mechanical injection systems.
does anybody tried or did convert a bosch ketronic for ethanol use? in europe these injection system is very common on older (german) cars, but also in the us! (like porsche 924US Cool

/ mercedes benz w123/w126 and so on...)

would a change of bigger injection jets and a little bit more power on injection pressure bring up suxcess firing e 85 ore even more?

thanks for all answers Wink

best regards from good ol´europe

mb

hotrod · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 872 Location: Colorado

Sorry but it appears none of us have any experience with that injection system. I did a search on the web and there is very little information on how it works other than it is a continuous fuel injection system.

If it has replaceable jets and the injection runs continuously (like the Hilborn I suppose) I would expect that increaseing the fuel flow by adjusting the jet size would work for you.

On the Hilborn injection systems the mixture is controlled by changing the size of a jet that controls fuel return, so increasing the jet size increases fuel return and leans out the mixture. If the Ketronic does the same than the jet size would need to be reduced to richen the fuel mixture by reducing fuel bypass back to the tank.

If you can give us a bit more information on how it controls fuel flow in relation to engine rpm and load maybe we can give you some educated guesses.

Bottom line you will need to figure out how to increase your fuel flow by about 27% - 30% over stock gasoline flow rates. You will also need to be sure the injection system contains no zinc or magnesium parts as they corrode in alcohol fuels.

Larry

MB190 · Joined: 22 Oct 2006 Posts: 13

Hello, Florian!

About KE-jetronic;
This is a mechanial system with continously opened injectors.
The flow is controlled by a counterlever connected to a plunger.
This plunger lets fuel pass thorugh to four chambers, one for each cylinder/injector, gving a specific delivery pressure depending of the air flow to the engine.
On the other side of a membrane is a "middle"-pressure, giving a balance over the membrane which in turn meters the fuel amount delivered to the injector.
On older K-jet this middle pressure was constant and for coldstart and acceleraration/turbo enrichment a controlpressure (which is acting on the top of the plunger, reacting the movement from the air flow) was lowered by a coldstart-controlvalve sensing the heat of the engine and optionally electrical signal from a ower boost sensor.
A K-lambda system was also used by a few manufacturers, basically by a flickering valve leaking out more or less of this controlpressure to return line, depending on lambda variations.
But, this is a relativley unstable and not enoug accurate method of controlling lambda so the KE-jet was developed.
Here, the controlpressure on top on the plunger is constant (but can actually be lowered as a conversion method used by myself in the beginning).
INstead the "middle"pressure below the mebranes is altered depending on signals from an ECU.
On a non-catalyst engine this is only used for coldstart and acceleretion enrichment but on catalyst versions also this mantained by this variation of the "middle"-pressure.
The middle pressure is controlled by a elektromagnetic valve, EHA of high precision. The current to it is cycling +/- a certain amperege, giving a corresponding flow from the higher working pressure

hope this helps you?

what abaout increase of injection pressure?
thnks

Bluestar · Joined: 26 Dec 2006 Posts: 10 Location: Europe

Hi there everybody!

I stumbled across this forum while searching the internet for Information about converting my old car to Ethanol.

I'm from Europe, Germany to be exact, and run a small company for alternative fuel information & advice. Right now we do plant oil conversion for diesel cars.

But the time has come and (at last) ethanol becomes available in Germany. So, I have to try it out! My "test vehicle" is an old Saab 900, equipped with the aforementioned K-Jetronik injection system. (K stands for kontinuierlich = continuous). I think it was called "CI" in english. This system seems to be widely applied in different brands (Saab, Volvo, VW, Porsche etc.), but I couldn't find proper advice so far how to convert it to Ethanol.

Right now I try to drive E50 without any modifications. It doesn't work that good...
When cold-starting it runs smoothly, but not at normal engine temperature.

So, I wonder if there's anyone 'round here who can help me? Is there a "known good" way to convert it?

Following some technical details:
Engine: Saab B201 non-turbo engine 1985 ccm / no catalyzer/lamdba
There's no electronical motor management thingy, everything is done by some not-so-simple (for me) electrical or mechanical dev.
Cold-start works via a temperature sensor and an additional fuel injection valve atop the air distributor. This acts also as extra fuel enrichment for boost, as described before.
Mixture is set as described by MB190, but this makes it hard to alter fuel pressure, as theres no external fuel pressure regulator. I am told by some Saab tech guys that the fuel pressure is at around 5 bar (no idea what this is in psi, sorry).
My current idea is to make the cold-start/boost valve adjustable.

I'd be happy to hear about your ideas!

Greetings from Germany

MB190 · Joined: 22 Oct 2006 Posts: 13

hello bluestar!

yes, i know abaout your problem, i come from austria, here it is nearly a "problem" to get useable alcohol... Rolling Eyes

there is a possibilty to increase fuel ratio in ke jetronic by simple turning a screw on the backside of the eha modul (elektrohydraulisches stellglied zu deutsch... Wink

maybe installing some bigger(-40%) injectionvalves could bring the same results..

but cold weather starting is a problem. it can be that a goodrunning cold engine needs up to 400% more fuel then on a warm running cyclus...
this problem could be solved by a second gas tank filled up with regular or regular-ethanol mix (e30?) for cold weather starting like it is used in common plantoil convertingsystems.

Bluestar · Joined: 26 Dec 2006 Posts: 10 Location: Europe

Hi thanks for the quick answer!

I'm not sure if there's a "EHA" installed in my Saab. It has a completely "electronic-free" K-Jetronic, not a KE.

Right now I'm trying to get some larger Injectors, from a turbo model.

I don't think that cold-start would be any problem, in fact right now it's the only thing working correctly with E 50. The cold-start additional fuel injector does a good job. But I experience some minor engine problems at low boost in "warm mode". I recently went back to E 25...

There must be a solution! And I want to keep my old car, even more after I read the Thread about the Range Rover being a greener car than the Prius...
_________________
Bluestar -- Germany -- 1985 Saab 900i

MB190 · Joined: 22 Oct 2006 Posts: 13

hi!
yes thats right k jetronic has no electronic parts, like the golf gti mk 1 and others...

thats interesting, so you want to install some bigger injectors and a install a second fuel tank/pump filled up with som e30 for coldstart, am i right?
i also want to use some older cars, and convert them...

but i still only know the mb190 with 2.0 carb. engine as only convertible youngtimer mercedes, it has only 90hp but the carb is a stromberg quertromvergaser 175 cdt, it can simple be converted by only changing one carburator needle. cost about 30usd/23euro...

so go on and let me know your expierences with your saab...

ps: maybe you know a source in BRD to get some bigger injection valves for mercedes benz w201 190 2.0E? do you know some partsdealer? maybe a bigger engine same time built has compareable larger injectors... Wink

Bluestar · Joined: 26 Dec 2006 Posts: 10 Location: Europe

Yes, I'm on it! Smile

My plan is to convert this little Saab to "single-fuel" Ethanol only, no 2nd tank. I dunno if that's possible, but I'll try it. New Year's celebration slowed me a bit down though Rolling Eyes

Next try will be the injectors from the "turbo" model Saab 900. We'll see...

I don't have a source for larger injectors yet, maybe there's a parts dealer in the US, shipping to Europe? Anyone?
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Bluestar -- Germany -- 1985 Saab 900i

hotrod · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 872 Location: Colorado

Try RC engineering

www.rceng.com

They might be able to help you or point you to an european source.

Larry

MB190 · Joined: 22 Oct 2006 Posts: 13

hy bluestar

yes i know your problems, but in meantime i turned back to the idea using gasoline as a starting primer... Cool

i think you´ll have a big problem with your injectors, your saab has a k jetronic (engine code B201I) but 16valve turbo model (enginecode B202 !! ) has modern lh jetronic injection system, that means to you that injectors are NOT combareable to each other...

your injectors are "classicsystem" like early diesel injectors... there is a strong feather that keeps the injection bolt in "close switch", the system regulated the fuelflow to each injector, now the system pressure opens the feather resistence ->> fuel is injected

the new system is lh jetronic there is a static fuel pressure and a little ECU fed by electronical impulses opens an eletromagneticvalve on top of injectionnozzle -->> fuel is injected

primarely thats the way how modern injection systems (bosch, japon, mocraft,aso) work, only impulses changed. nowdays there is more information sent to the ECU like temperatur, exhaustflow,fuelpressure, rpm, airpressure and so on...

you would need to find a other way to increase the injected fuel capacity...

maybe get some used injectors and try to bore them to bigger openings, you maybe also have to change i.gaskets to bigger and change the material (use VITON! Wink

) maybe also the featherrate has to be changed,

if you can not handle with a turn, drillmachine and mechtools and got no simple mechanical knowledge thake a friend who knows, then try it!!

even modern knowledge and inventions on mechanics, machines and weaponrysystem is only simply based on experimetal tries...believe it or not.
Rolling Eyes

sorry for my bad english

best regards

MB190 · Joined: 22 Oct 2006 Posts: 13

we have good expieriences with electric fuel preheaters for vegetableoils... i think you ll get enough heat for coldweatherstarting try:

http://www.monopoel.de/uebersicht/shop.html

so go on and let us know... Wink

Bluestar · Joined: 26 Dec 2006 Posts: 10 Location: Europe

Thanks for the good links, guys! Where there's a will, there's a way, this is my 2007 motto. And you're helping me a lot! Smile

MB190, mind if I call you next week or so? Your site seems very interesting to me, for business! Wink

I'm still looking for the larger K-Jetronic injectors. There were turbo 8v models, I know!
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Bluestar -- Germany -- 1985 Saab 900i

MB190 · Joined: 22 Oct 2006 Posts: 13

hy blue

yes, you can call me but thats not my site Laughing

i come from austria Wink

Bluestar · Joined: 26 Dec 2006 Posts: 10 Location: Europe

Okay, on it goes:

RC Engineering doesn't deliver anything for Ethanol.

For those who are interested in modding these Bosch mechanical injections: One Problem might be the fuel distributor (Mengenteiler) which has a part in it that is lubricated by fuel. Ethanol doesn't do this, so you have to add an extra oil "thingy" to compensate for this, just the same thing is used with LPG conversions.

I'll try this and post the result!
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Bluestar -- Germany -- 1985 Saab 900i

cessna · Joined: 06 Nov 2006 Posts: 52 Location: Iowa

Bluestar wrote