E85Forum.com

mr157ifhz · Joined: 02 Mar 2011 Posts: 6 Location: Ont., Canada

Hi. New to the forum. Some of my questions have already been answered by going through the archives, but I still have a few.
Would like to run E85, and eventually 100% ethanol in my "97 Ford Escort. I am very easy on the car (mainly to save fuel), I can't remember the last time I exceeded 3000rpm, and I never floor the throttle. It seems that the plug-in conversion kits you buy (Flex-Tek, White Lightning etc.) allow the injectors to stay open longer at start up and WOT (As I understand, when the ECU is in closed loop operation). Aside from grumpy starting, could it be possible the engine would be able to adapt without tripping a CEL because the car is not operated at WOT?
It is also often recommended on non-FFV to install larger injectors and a FPR, adding that your vehicle becomes an E85 only vehicle. Why is that? wouldn't the ECU be able to adjust to the larger injectors and FPR through the o2 sensor, and adjust fuel delivery to still run on gasoline? Thanks,
-Matt

hotrod · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 872 Location: Colorado

Welcome to the forum!

The answer to your question is "maybe". It all depends on how the engine management computer on the 97 escort handles fuel adjustments for out of range fuel air ratios.

Most modern cars have engine management computers that can adjust fuel flow by about 25% from the stock gasoline fuel trim. That is not quite enough to get good performance on E85, and most definitely will not work with straight ethanol, but some cars get closer than others on E85 blends.

For example my 88 Subaru turbo will run on straight E85 in really hot weather, but it takes most of a fuel tank to get over the stumbles, and it is almost impossible to start at temperatures below the mid 70 deg F range.

The best way to answer your question is for you to start splash blending by adding 2-3 gallons of E85 to the tank and topping it off with gasoline. Drive it for a few days like that and see how it behaves. If you have no problems add another gallon of E85 (keeping notes of fuel added so you can work out the real ethanol content).

The car will be happy to tell you when it gets grumpy about the fuel you have in the tank. It will stumble and surge when cold or refuse to start in cool weather if you go too far.

On my 88 I put up to 30%-50% E85 in the tank in the hot summer months but taper back to straight gasoline as it gets cooler in the fall.

You will probably have to meet the engine management computer half way by making some adjustments to richen up the fuel mixture so that it runs properly at light throttle cruise.

It will go lean at high load if you do that as you get into open loop fuel control, but as long as you are in closed loop (where the computer consults with the O2 sensor to adjust fuel) it should run fine once you either make some partial enrichment of the fuel or find a midrange blend of E85 with gasoline that the car will handle.

Larry

mr157ifhz · Joined: 02 Mar 2011 Posts: 6 Location: Ont., Canada

Thank you for the reply, helps out with a few things.
I just found the following:
http://www.liquidsunenergy.com/learning/ppt/ice.pdf
Seems to be an excellent description on ethanol and engines. I wouldn't have needed to post had I read this sooner.
Still though would like to know if FPR and/or larger injectors were installed, would the ECU be able to adjust and still use gasoline?
-Matt

hotrod · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 872 Location: Colorado

Yes it will!

I have done exactly that on my last E85 conversion. I increased fuel flow so that the engine management used zero fuel trim with a mixture of 50% E85 and 50% gasoline in the tank. The stock engine management has 25% fuel trim authority (can adjust + or - 15% of stock fuel flow).

As a result it richens the mixture about 15% when running pure E85 and leans the mixture about 15 % when running straight gasoline. This works perfectly in closed loop fueling where the ECU has full control over the fuel air mixture, but the engine leans out some at wide open throttle on straight E85 and goes rich a bit on straight gasoline. I can easily eliminate that buy manually adjusting the adjustable fuel pressure regulator when I fuel up (takes only a minute) so I do not need to worry about being able to find an E85 fuel station when traveling.

To do that, install an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and increase the flow of the fuel injector by 15%, then make necessary small adjustments with the fuel pressure regulator.

It will not be quite as good as a full fuel map just for E85 or just for gasoline but unless you are driving under severe conditions like towing on a mountain pass in hot weather it will work just fine for a typical daily driver car.

Larry

mr157ifhz · Joined: 02 Mar 2011 Posts: 6 Location: Ont., Canada

So the computer was able to adapt.... any problem cold starting?
-Matt

hotrod · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 872 Location: Colorado

Yes the computer can adapt "within limits" during normal operation.

Yes there are problems with cold start and engine warm up cycle when temps are colder than 50-60 deg F.

That is why I run mine 88 Subaru on E85 blends only in the heat of the summer. The WRX conversion does much better but it also had issues with cold starting when temps got down near freezing.

Each car is different depending on how the manufacture implements cold start adjustments and related ECU operation. The only way to know for sure is to do controlled tests where you gradually add higher blends of E85 to the tank and see how the car behaves.

Some modern cars are really FFV's without the certification as some models seem to be very tolerant of higher E85 blends, while others only handle blends from 30%-50% before they show check engine lights and cold start issues.

Larry

mr157ifhz · Joined: 02 Mar 2011 Posts: 6 Location: Ont., Canada

Thanks much for your replies. Food for thought.
-Matt

mr157ifhz · Joined: 02 Mar 2011 Posts: 6 Location: Ont., Canada

Thinking about this for a while - I think I will do two things: Install a FPR and heat the fuel (with a bypass for when on gasoline). It will be either gasoline or 100% ethanol though, so far I don't think I will be able to get E85. There are only two stations in the whole province, the closest about 30min from me, but apparently they will not sell me E85 unless into a factory flex-fuel vehicle. Just what I've heard - I will be calling the station to find out myself. Too much money to be made yet from this country's oil sands to bother with alternative fuels I guess.
-Matt

murphinator · Joined: 08 Jan 2010 Posts: 93

they sell flex fuel emblems on ebay , put one on then you have an ffv Laughing

if its late model most gas station cashiers wouldnt know the difference anyways
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jsiddall · Joined: 06 May 2010 Posts: 6

mr157ifhz · Joined: 02 Mar 2011 Posts: 6 Location: Ont., Canada

Ottawa a bit far from me, I'm near Cambridge; the station in Guelph is closest. Haven't phoned them yet, perhaps I will just drive up to the pump and start fillin'. May grab one of the suggested 'flex-fuel' embems just in case.
-Matt