E85Forum.com

Bluestar · Joined: 26 Dec 2006 Posts: 10 Location: Europe

Are you sure? I don't like the idea of putting diesel in my Saab... And why should it be "Biodiesel" ? I know this is very agressive stuff, and here in Germany it's widely being taken off the Gas Stations because nobody wants to wreck their diesel cars with it any more. I think there are currently no car models in Europe which can use Biodiesel without losing warranty.
It's added to normal diesel due to the government though. Yes, we're crazy here. I don't get it either.

Anyway, can somebody explain why I should mix Biodiesel with Ethanol?
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Bluestar -- Germany -- 1985 Saab 900i

MB190 · Joined: 22 Oct 2006 Posts: 13

hi bluestar

yes its an old idea, making ethanol more lubricant by adding some diesel (up to 3percents) to the fuel, first tried in the 1960´s, but it was found not to be nesessery... (ethanol is a good lubricant,its allways mixed with 4percents water, and it is also used in cars without hardened valve and valve seats,that were lubricated by bleitetraethyl and bleitetramethyl)

even if that company could deliver some ethanolcompatible parts it would be not useable to you, i told it some threads before...

Wink

ps: mengenverteiler is of course used also in the kejetronic, and that system is compatible to ethanol, so at least THIS will not be your problem..

cessna · Joined: 06 Nov 2006 Posts: 52 Location: Iowa

I see somebody deleted my post. Bluestar wondered if he can add 1% biodiesel to his Saab and I thought he could read the spec's for AGE85 and see if it's good enough for an airplane it should work in his car. Hadn't heard Europe was having biodiesel problems unless it's poorly made. MB190 says 4% water for lubricity---we don't have 4% water in our E85 or at least we're not supposed to.
Here's the link for AGE85 spec's http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19990615_gen-215.pdf

MB190 · Joined: 22 Oct 2006 Posts: 13

hi cessna

thanks for the link.

but i disagree, even age85 has up to 3% water included, but i don´t think that thats right, the percentage of this norm is simply changed to
"political correct". the norms wanted to raise up the volume percantage of ethanol in e85 changed from naturally 96% to 97%or even up to 99%, to make sure that simple alcohol-burning-plants, existing all over the countries, can not be fueldealers, because making e99 is a not simple process, only by using special hygroscope chemicals that need special kataylist and temperatue you can make e99, BUT you cant change the hygroscope charakters from ethylalcohol!

that means e99 can only exist in a special dehydrated and closed Exclamation

atmosphere, at the moment you open this very expensive alcohol bottle the alcohol takes exactly 4% water out of the air(or the gasoline, and so on) because e 96 is the most possible ethyl-alcohol, water percentagemix.
if you use ethanol in juzngle climate of course it intakes more water, but thats not a problem if using in engines until the volumepercentage of e80!!
so, that means you can even put some water in your gastank to make it e80 if only using pure ethanol as fuel (this is usual in russia Laughing

)

but told once more: that is not the problem if converting k jetronic fuel injection.
don´t matter to much about the lubrication of e85 Wink

cessna · Joined: 06 Nov 2006 Posts: 52 Location: Iowa

MB190 said

Bluestar · Joined: 26 Dec 2006 Posts: 10 Location: Europe

Erm, yes...

So, to come back to the topic: I'd rather have an extra "lubrication oil tank" installed in my car than having to add biodiesel or whatever to my fuel.
I simply don't like the idea of additives.

So, has someone experiences with this type of conversion?

Btw, the problem of enriching the fuel mixture hasn't been solved either, so I really would appreciate any ideas on that.

My next project will be the conversion of a Saab 900 lh-jetronic, which should be fairly easy. I will use an electronical device made by flexitune.se. Will report how that works!
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Bluestar -- Germany -- 1985 Saab 900i

hotrod · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 872 Location: Colorado

skyrocketeer · Joined: 18 Jan 2007 Posts: 6 Location: Bristol

First post, hi all..

I've tinkered with K-jet a bit, and am looking at a KE-jet engine conversion on my current projects, which hopefully will be E85 friendly..

Increasing the fuelling of CIS (K-jet) FI systems - there's a couple of approaches:

1. Modify the warm-up-regulator to reduce the control pressure.
2. Adjust each of the pressure differential valves on the metering head.

1 would be the preferable option, as it will affect all injectors equally, however I'm not sure precisely how you'd achieve this, probably dismantle it and shim/trim behind the diaphragm.

2. I've seen this working on my Gti which was running lean. I took it to a garage where they dynoed it, then proceeded to tweak the differential presure valves individually to increase the fuelling (turned out it was then overfuelling, but that's another story). This is harder as each injector has it's own DP valve, and they all need to be set in unison.

Bluestar · Joined: 26 Dec 2006 Posts: 10 Location: Europe

Hi and welcome!

This sounds like a good idea, modding the warm-up regulator, but do you think its possible? Isn't it sealed? I can just imagine my mechanic's face when I tell him, hey, I want an warm-up regulator mod! Shocked

The other solution seems to be good, and if it has been done before, it can be done again I assume... Can you still remember how long it took for your GTi to have this done?
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Bluestar -- Germany -- 1985 Saab 900i

skyrocketeer · Joined: 18 Jan 2007 Posts: 6 Location: Bristol

It didn't actually take that long for the mechanic to do the mod to the fuel distributor (maybe an hour?) - and it's something I'd have done myself if I knew a bit more about it at the time, but the issue is the fact you need to adjust each injector individually, so the probability of getting the flow rates uneven is pretty high.

I'd prefer to mod the WUR personally, they're easy to come by, and shouldn't be that hard to dismantle, there are how-to guides on performance and modding forums on butchering WURs - it's a popular mod for folks that are doing daft things like turbo & nitrous

little_e · Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 1

I would actually prefer to modify the WUR.

There's a company in the UK that could do this for you. I know, because I bought an adjustable, three-stage WUR for a turbo-project. It reacts to vacuum and boost, and I can adjust the control pressure to whatever I want.

Combine that with a gauge that measures the pressure, and you're on you're way to drive your car on normal unleaded and E85 only.

MB190 · Joined: 22 Oct 2006 Posts: 13

@ little_e

hello!

yes that seems interesting and is one of the simple and good working conversions used in sweden..

maybe you can tell us the companys hp?

best regards

mb

BURNALCOHOL · Joined: 19 Oct 2005 Posts: 50 Location: Raymond,NE

This link will give example of what water content US gasoline is alowed:

http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/new-fuel/files/phaseseparation.pdf

Over 1/2 of a percent water (00.5%) at 60 deg. will start phase seperation.
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Jeremy Nicholls

E drifto · Joined: 26 Mar 2010 Posts: 12

i've done this some & never upgraded injectors
there are 3 CIS systems on vw for ex
they all operate @ 4 - 5 bar system pressure
all the 4 cyl have enough fuel for 200 hp gas stock

an 85 golf gti i poured e into ate right through an unbraided "fuel" line i found in the tank, as the return hose, off the fuel sending unit, it dissolved into a sticky goo in the fuel, i'd look in there b4 you pour e into an 85...i wonder what's different about a brazillian cis system

K Jetronic 74 - 81: raise up the base pressure by the 1 shim location in the fuel distributor, haven't done it, but i'd raise the system pres up to 100ish w big home made shims & leave the warm up regulator alone

K Jetronic w lambda sensor 81 - 84: same as basic, but it adds an o2 electronic box in & affects a change in the AF by duty cycle in the "OXY frequency valve"
it also has a two position warm up switch in the coolant system & a full throttle switch @ the TB
all three electronic mods to the "brain", grounding the o2, shorting the TB switch & shorting the warm up switch may get 20% richer, not enough...haven't done it

KE Jetronic (CIS E) 85 - 88:
these eliminate the WURegulator (which only changes the spring resistance on the plate), get an entirely reshaped air funnel sensor, & the "differential pressure regulator" effects AF on the fuel distributor with allot more range.

these computers are seperate from the ignition computer & eng temp changes have no effect on the timing.

i installed a 10K potentiometer in place of the engine temp sensor, changes AF 30% on the dash

these cars are notoriously a tad too rich & poor mpg on gas...

they also ran out of fuel in the high rpms, cause the newer "funnel" lacked a third "full load curve" - Bosch Fuel Injection & Engine Management, Bentley publishers, so people added an electronic gizmo that changed the DPR duty cycle @ set rpm, to richen up high rpm

i reshaped the funnel instead, the hvac tin "fins" i added cause an air restriction, but only when the plate is @ high air volume

this is how i got my 16v scirocco rich enough for e85
& by advancing my timing some, i've got 30 mpg, nevar beyond 25 on gas, 10:1, squirting e85 @ the closed intake valve 75% of the time...
very little heat comes out of the radiator

i also hardwired the cold start injector to a switch on the dash & have started the car @ 10F, with a one crank tractor battery, especially since the e seems to vapor lock right out of the cis systems in the summer

E drifto · Joined: 26 Mar 2010 Posts: 12

after some more experimenting it seems that max power timing is the same as gasoline

but i can improve my mpg on the highway with too much timing & ultra lean
although it's too much timing for max power....

i haven't scientifically measured anything with boost guage or wideband, but mpg by odometer
but by starting with my foot to the floor, i can lift to about 15% throttle over the course of 30 seconds
& the car seems to keep the exact same amount of power as long as i keep slightly increasing the vacuum & therefore the advance, while reducing the overall air going into the engine

if i had standalone, i'd add lots of advance under vacuum for mpg & keep wot map
i'm glad i found out the burn speed is related to the af ratio since i found this forum
i learn something everytime i log on here Smile