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Fredster
Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 111
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 Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:08 am Post subject: Honda B20A5 engine rebuilt to ethanol fuel + E85 sources |
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Hello people,
I am currently rebuilding a b20a5 honda prelude engine (very long term project) and i would like to read your comments about how to build the engine and surrounding systems to drink E85 fuel.
Can i just build it stock ? i heard that i would need to change injectors for injectors 30% larger. That should probably decrease engine efficiency and power by such.
Any other mods requ'd ? higher compression, turbo
I was thinking of a gas tank heater as i live in quebec where we have minus 30 degrees celcius in winter. I though of a preset timer to preheat gas tank and fuel lines to increase cold start reliability. A few batteries in the trunk to maximise non running heating.
I also read that engine would run leaner and colder (?!?)
will a lean mix have the engine ping ?
I read hotter spark plugs won't change anything ?
Can you lean the mix even more ?
I have a programmed fuel injection system, has anyone experimented with this ?
Has anyone used E85 in snowy winters ?
A lot of question but i would like extensive anwers. I've quickly read over this forum and it really interests me.
Finally, how do you produce E85, other than with corn and wood chips ?
can you produce it out of sewers ? local waste fills residue ? any info on a better ethanol source and process ?
How ''clean'' is it, for real ?
Tell me everything lol.
(oh yeah, i'm fred, from canada, i'm a aeronautical technician and a mechanical engineer. I'm about to start management school part time while working on the A380 project in an engineering firm) |
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stylin99
Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 85
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:32 am Post subject: |
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Your climate will definitely produce some interesting challenges since Ethanol is hard to light when it gets cold.
The Winter Blend of E85 is actually 70% alcohol instead of the 79-85% in Summer Blend. That would be your first step, but in such a cold climate, you may have to mix even more gasoline in to get the car to start up properly.
I'm still running Summer blend right now in my Mustang and when the temps get below 45F or so, the damn thing just doesn't want to fire up.
When you crank the key, it takes a few seconds before you even get it to fire. It fires once. I try it again. It fires once or twice. Each time I try it, it fires a few more times until she runs on her own. It idles fine after that but I have to let it warm up before I can even think about driving it.
There are tons of resources on the web. Just do a Google search for what you're looking for, and go for the reliable websites first, mainly the Government sponsored links
_________________
'99 Mustang GT, Vortech Supercharged, now running E85 full time.
www.e85mustangs.com
Best Quarter Mile on E85:
10.52 at 135 mph |
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Fredster
Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 111
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| stylin99 wrote: | Your climate will definitely produce some interesting challenges since Ethanol is hard to light when it gets cold.
The Winter Blend of E85 is actually 70% alcohol instead of the 79-85% in Summer Blend. That would be your first step, but in such a cold climate, you may have to mix even more gasoline in to get the car to start up properly.
I'm still running Summer blend right now in my Mustang and when the temps get below 45F or so, the damn thing just doesn't want to fire up.
When you crank the key, it takes a few seconds before you even get it to fire. It fires once. I try it again. It fires once or twice. Each time I try it, it fires a few more times until she runs on her own. It idles fine after that but I have to let it warm up before I can even think about driving it.
There are tons of resources on the web. Just do a Google search for what you're looking for, and go for the reliable websites first, mainly the Government sponsored links |
Hello Stylin99, i really like your setup. I would like to do something similar with a japanese engines, that is to increase power with turbo or something like that and fuel with e85 ...
It seems as though that is hard on the starter system lol.
Yeah, i googled E85 conversions but what i found was for carburated engines.
I though about the fact that the quebec winter would render a setup inadequate for e85. This is exaclty what i want. I have another car and it's perfectly reliable in the winter. It's just that i want to make this system reliable for winter.
So the main problem with e85 is cold start ups. Is the problem the temperature of the e85 or the temperature of the engine. Does the engine heat up quickly or you really have to wait to get it to heat up ?
Will regular gasoline injectors work on the e85 fuel ? is the viscosity similar ?
Do you guys have links that i can look at ... i've searched but i realize the best way to find very good information on a subject is discussing on forums.
How about ethanol production ? what can be done about that ? i don't believe corn is the solution. Not the only solution for that matter.
It is possible to produce methanol with garbage and sewers, can we fuel gasoline engines with methanol ? It's usually kept for diesel engines ... but with a good blend has anyone heard about this ? |
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stylin99
Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 85
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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http://e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/conversion.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85
http://www.turbomustangs.com/smf/index.php?topic=47094.0
These links are some of my favorites for learning E85.
If you're going to try some type of heater for cold weather, you'd have to heat the fuel rails themselves not the tank. The fuel that is used at start up is sitting in the fuel rails so you'd have to get it up to a good temperature. Something about it having low evaporative characteristics at low temps and won't ignite easily. Hence the reason for more gasoline content in winter. If you could find a way to get through initial start up on gasoline, and then switch over to E85 (computer and the fuel itself) it might work better.
_________________
'99 Mustang GT, Vortech Supercharged, now running E85 full time.
www.e85mustangs.com
Best Quarter Mile on E85:
10.52 at 135 mph |
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Fredster
Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 111
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| stylin99 wrote: | http://e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/conversion.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85
http://www.turbomustangs.com/smf/index.php?topic=47094.0
These links are some of my favorites for learning E85.
If you're going to try some type of heater for cold weather, you'd have to heat the fuel rails themselves not the tank. The fuel that is used at start up is sitting in the fuel rails so you'd have to get it up to a good temperature. Something about it having low evaporative characteristics at low temps and won't ignite easily. Hence the reason for more gasoline content in winter. If you could find a way to get through initial start up on gasoline, and then switch over to E85 (computer and the fuel itself) it might work better. |
Hello,
Thanks for the very helpful links, it's the kind of information that i was looking for. (usually google satisfies my hunger for knowledge but not all the time  )
Sorry for the TBR (time between replies lol)
I guess we could install another small fuel reservoir with another fuel pump, line that up to a solenoid with injector on the intake similar to nitrous system injection, and add a little button in the cockpit to ''prime'' startups, but that's not what i'm looking for.
I've already thought of that but i guess that i'd rather have only one fuel type onboard, if possible.
It's not a bad idea to heat up the fuel rail only to render cold start ups more easy ... that way, you could keep the heat source to the fuel rail in order to bring e85 closer to evaporative temp.
I also thought of having other types of injectors for diffusing liquids with higher viscosity ...
Probably a mix of injector, heat fuel rails and computer tuning (wonder if i could tune engine with below freezing points in a dyno shop )
Last edited by Fredster on Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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hotrod
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 872
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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Can i just build it stock ? i heard that i would need to change injectors for injectors 30% larger. That should probably decrease engine efficiency and power by such.
You can build it stock but it would be better to optimise it for E85.
Yes you will need to increase fuel flow by about 30%
No it will not decrease engine effeciency and power, in fact your power will go up about 5% -8%
Any other mods requ'd ? higher compression, turbo
They are not required although an increase in compression ratio will help it run more effeciently on E85.
I was thinking of a gas tank heater as i live in quebec where we have minus 30 degrees celcius in winter. I though of a preset timer to preheat gas tank and fuel lines to increase cold start reliability. A few batteries in the trunk to maximise non running heating
No you should not need to heat the fuel. There are other ways to improve cold start.
I also read that engine would run leaner and colder (?!?)
The engine will run a bit colder but will not run leaner, as mentioned in the first item E85 requires more fuel flow and it runs better a very rich mixtures than gasoline does.
will a lean mix have the engine ping ?
You should not lean it out, but E85 is much better at preventing ping than gasoline. The lean out you keep mentioning is what happens if you use E85 in a carburated car with out any modification, or in an EFI car with no modification when it is open loop fueling. A proper conversion does not lean out.
I read hotter spark plugs won't change anything ?
Probably will not make any difference.
Can you lean the mix even more ?
Why are you so interested in leaning the mixture out, give it a proper mixture for the fuel and it will run better and start better?
I have a programmed fuel injection system, has anyone experimented with this ?
Yes most of us on this forum are using electronic fuel injection.
Has anyone used E85 in snowy winters ?
Yes I drove my converted WRX on 100% E85 during winter weather at temps as low as -15 degrees F.
It was a bit more difficult to start compared to gasoline but that was easily fixed by adding a couple gallons of gasoline to the tank.
Finally, how do you produce E85, other than with corn and wood chips ?
can you produce it out of sewers ? local waste fills residue ? any info on a better ethanol source and process ?
How ''clean'' is it, for real ?
Generally "you" do not produce E85, the answer to that last question would take a small book. It is significantly cleaner than gasoline in total emissions.
Larry |
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1outlaw
Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Central Wisconsin
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Fredster- where you live you likely already have a block heater or some other water heating device on your car-- does it start easily on NL gas???
If so-I would not worry about heating the fuel but i would drop to e60 for the winter as they do in parts of N. Dakota. E60 will have vapor pressure very close to NL gas. E70 is adequate for WI and Minn. |
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Fredster
Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 111
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| hotrod wrote: | Can i just build it stock ? i heard that i would need to change injectors for injectors 30% larger. That should probably decrease engine efficiency and power by such.
You can build it stock but it would be better to optimise it for E85.
Yes you will need to increase fuel flow by about 30%
No it will not decrease engine effeciency and power, in fact your power will go up about 5% -8%
Any other mods requ'd ? higher compression, turbo
They are not required although an increase in compression ratio will help it run more effeciently on E85.
I was thinking of a gas tank heater as i live in quebec where we have minus 30 degrees celcius in winter. I though of a preset timer to preheat gas tank and fuel lines to increase cold start reliability. A few batteries in the trunk to maximise non running heating
No you should not need to heat the fuel. There are other ways to improve cold start.
I also read that engine would run leaner and colder (?!?)
The engine will run a bit colder but will not run leaner, as mentioned in the first item E85 requires more fuel flow and it runs better a very rich mixtures than gasoline does.
will a lean mix have the engine ping ?
You should not lean it out, but E85 is much better at preventing ping than gasoline. The lean out you keep mentioning is what happens if you use E85 in a carburated car with out any modification, or in an EFI car with no modification when it is open loop fueling. A proper conversion does not lean out.
I read hotter spark plugs won't change anything ?
Probably will not make any difference.
Can you lean the mix even more ?
Why are you so interested in leaning the mixture out, give it a proper mixture for the fuel and it will run better and start better?
I have a programmed fuel injection system, has anyone experimented with this ?
Yes most of us on this forum are using electronic fuel injection.
Has anyone used E85 in snowy winters ?
Yes I drove my converted WRX on 100% E85 during winter weather at temps as low as -15 degrees F.
It was a bit more difficult to start compared to gasoline but that was easily fixed by adding a couple gallons of gasoline to the tank.
Finally, how do you produce E85, other than with corn and wood chips ?
can you produce it out of sewers ? local waste fills residue ? any info on a better ethanol source and process ?
How ''clean'' is it, for real ?
Generally "you" do not produce E85, the answer to that last question would take a small book. It is significantly cleaner than gasoline in total emissions.
Larry |
Hello Thanks for your replies hotrod. As a matter of fact i realize that the stoechiometric mix for e85 is 9.xx:1 wich requires more moles of fuel to the mole of air than your regular NL fuel. I though instinctively that the fuel must have more ping resistance so we could use an even lower mix to keep hotter operating temperature.
What is there to do with an electronic injection system ? any tuning devices ? the computer is an odb0 type computer ...
I realize producing the fuel is not necessarily an option but i just had to ask ! lol
Thanks for your replies |
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Fredster
Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 111
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| 1outlaw wrote: | Fredster- where you live you likely already have a block heater or some other water heating device on your car-- does it start easily on NL gas???
If so-I would not worry about heating the fuel but i would drop to e60 for the winter as they do in parts of N. Dakota. E60 will have vapor pressure very close to NL gas. E70 is adequate for WI and Minn. |
Yes it does start fairly easily with our winters. Usually i don't plug my block heater in winter and i have absolutely no problems at startup. My car's a 2006 i guess a new car makes it easier lol
Thing is we don't have ethanol fuel in canada ... ! so i'm starting this project ... it'll take some time to make lol ... but i work on it regularily ...
thanks for your answers, i'll try to keep you posted on this site !
Fred |
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imprezarsc
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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Just to mention it:
If you're building your engine up, I suspect you're doing a light flywheel. I've never seen any EFI car with a light flywheel fail to crank unless something was wrong.
_________________
http://www.grantouringlabs.com My ethanol conversion and tuning site. |
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Fredster
Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 111
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| Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| imprezarsc wrote: | Just to mention it:
If you're building your engine up, I suspect you're doing a light flywheel. I've never seen any EFI car with a light flywheel fail to crank unless something was wrong. |
i didn't think about a light flywheel ...
I don't understand why you're talking about a light flywheel on a EFI setup. Yes the engine is EFI ... are you saying that the light flywheel should help cold start ups ? i don't think so ... |
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imprezarsc
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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I can only compare to scoobs, so bear with me. None of them have ever failed to start (on gas) with a light flywheel. Literally, it goes like this. 1.) Turn the key 2.) Wait and let the fuel pump prime. 3.) BLIP the starter for one rotation and they'd fire right up.
I would think a light flywheel and an upgraded ignition would at least help. They won't cure it, and I think you'd still have atomization issues in cold weather. I delivered pizza on E85 in Colorado at night last winter. It would regularly get to 0 degrees, and my car would still start up just fine, even without a light flywheel. It actually started better once I got the larger injectors in. Instead of a blip for one rotation, it was a blip for two if it was cold  . Hope this helps. I really doubt you'll have too much in the way of problems.
_________________
http://www.grantouringlabs.com My ethanol conversion and tuning site. |
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red91sit
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| Fredster wrote: |
Hello Thanks for your replies hotrod. As a matter of fact i realize that the stoechiometric mix for e85 is 9.xx:1 wich requires more moles of fuel to the mole of air than your regular NL fuel. I though instinctively that the fuel must have more ping resistance so we could use an even lower mix to keep hotter operating temperature.
What is there to do with an electronic injection system ? any tuning devices ? the computer is an odb0 type computer ...
I realize producing the fuel is not necessarily an option but i just had to ask ! lol
Thanks for your replies |
The computer in these cars is a real freak. I used to own a prelude likes yours (really liked it) but the lack of information and available parts made me loose interest. I don't know if you knwo about www.preludepower.com, but I believe they cracked the ecu problems on that site.
As far as cold starting is concerned, the one college that converted a pickup used a heated mesh in the intake to warm up the intake charge as well as air injection through the fuel injectors to create a finer, more flammable mist.
(should be a link near top of page)(or from the wiki site)
Most people just add more regular gas, and have no troubles.
As far as the leaner mixture is concerned, I've pondered this as well. The fuel has a comparable octane rating of 105 (i think), I'm not a big fan of running lean though, bad experiences. I did succesfully run my 302 rather lean for hundreds of miles with no ill effects, but that was mostly luck.
If i was you, i would definetly raise the compression ratio. Isn't it around 9:1-9.1:1 stock? If you add a bit, you'll get a bump up in power, and fuel economy. You will have to run premium (or E-85) but its' really not much more expensive. |
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Fredster
Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 111
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| imprezarsc wrote: | | I would think a light flywheel and an upgraded ignition would at least help. They won't cure it, and I think you'd still have atomization issues in cold weather. I delivered pizza on E85 in Colorado at night last winter. It would regularly get to 0 degrees, and my car would still start up just fine, even without a light flywheel. |
ok so you're really saying that a light flywheel should help cold startups by reducing rotationnal inertia ? |
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Fredster
Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 111
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:46 am Post subject: |
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| red91sit wrote: | The computer in these cars is a real freak. I used to own a prelude likes yours (really liked it) but the lack of information and available parts made me loose interest. I don't know if you knwo about www.preludepower.com, but I believe they cracked the ecu problems on that site.
As far as the leaner mixture is concerned, I've pondered this as well. The fuel has a comparable octane rating of 105 (i think), I'm not a big fan of running lean though, bad experiences. I did succesfully run my 302 rather lean for hundreds of miles with no ill effects, but that was mostly luck.
If i was you, i would definetly raise the compression ratio. Isn't it around 9:1-9.1:1 stock? If you add a bit, you'll get a bump up in power, and fuel economy. You will have to run premium (or E-85) but its' really not much more expensive. |
I'm not running a prelude as a daily driver ... i've got a few prelude engine's worth of parts that i intend to reassemble and convert to ethanol. Compression ratio on that engine is like 9.5:1.
I would increase compression ratio ... but i want to go turbo on these prelude engines. Heated wire mesh on intake charge is a good idea ... i was sorta thinkin' about heating the fuel rail instead like what was previousely said.
I got another question for you guys ... do you think i should try to run carburated setup or keep the injection system ? i could very easily run a carburator on this. Would it make running e85 easier ? or i should just run injection setup the way it is ?
Update on project:
Engines completely disassembled
Heads ported and polished
Cylinder head assembly mockup done (had to make sure i still have all parts lol)
About to start sandblasting ...
I'll eventually post pictures ... |
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