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Fueling the E85 community
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Revision
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 194
Location: Carol Stream, IL
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hotrod
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 872
Location: Colorado
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 Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:16 am Post subject: |
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It will be interesting to see if there is any legitimate issue here, or if someone is playing politics by other means.
Larry |
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1outlaw
Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Central Wisconsin
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Let's see- How many years has Minnesota been selling E85 thru standard dispensers??? How many problems???? And UL stopped testing but has not indicated there is any problems found to date. The NEVC is right- watching UL work is like watching paint dry. |
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Revision
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 194
Location: Carol Stream, IL
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Followup Story on the UL recinding the approval of E85 pumps.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/27/business/27ethanol.html
| Quote: |
Ethanol Could Corrode Pumps, Testers Say
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By ALEXEI BARRIONUEVO
Published: October 27, 2006
CHICAGO, Oct. 26 — The farm-produced fuel that is supposed to help wean America from its oil addiction is under scrutiny for its potentially corrosive qualities.
E85, a blend of 85 percent corn-based ethanol and 15 percent gasoline, could be eating away at metal and plastic parts in pumps being used to dispense the fuel at gasoline stations, Underwriters Laboratories, the private product-safety testing group, said this month.
BP, the British oil company, said on Thursday that it would delay the expansion of E85 at its American gasoline outlets until the laboratories certified an E85 dispensing system. “BP is tracking this issue very closely,” Valerie Corr, a company spokeswoman, said.
Underwriters Laboratories and the Department of Energy are holding two days of hearings next week at the testing group’s headquarters outside Chicago, inviting oil companies, automakers and researchers to help develop standards for E85 equipment.
Underwriters Laboratories, which certifies the safety of everything from toasters to televisions, has temporarily withdrawn authorization for the U.L.-approved label on parts used in E85 dispensers. Those dispensers, it turns out, were modified from regular gasoline dispensers and were certified only for a maximum of 15 percent ethanol concentration; U.L. said it had never certified any E85-specific pumps.
The reversal has heightened concerns among some oil companies about the safety of E85 pumps on the market and threatens to slow the proliferation of the fuel, which automakers, President Bush and Midwest lawmakers are pushing as a homegrown alternative to gasoline.
Ethanol is primarily used as a 10 percent additive in gasoline, but in higher concentrations like E85 it can corrode some types of metal and even make some plastics brittle over time.
The testing group’s decision comes after about a decade of E85 sales without any known safety problems. It means that the pumps currently dispensing E85 do not meet some state and local fire codes that require certification from U.L. or another independent tester.
The standards review could take six months to two years, said John Drengenberg, U.L.’s consumer affairs manager. He said that the group would immediately begin testing E85 dispensers once a new standard was in place. “We are moving as quickly as possible to get these technically correct standards in place,” Mr. Drengenberg said.
E85 is offered in more than 1,000 stations, mostly in the Midwest. Some states, including Iowa and Minnesota, are offering financial incentives so that retailers will install the pumps, and federal money is also available. But the expanded use of the fuel has been slow.
Wal-Mart Stores, which announced in May that it was considering offering E85 at nearly 400 Sam’s Club and Wal-Mart stores nationwide, has yet to say which stores, if any, will offer the fuel. “We are still in the consideration phase on E85,” said Kevin Gardner, a Wal-Mart spokesman, and the certification issue “is one more thing to consider.”
In Iowa, the largest corn-growing state, plans to triple the number of E85 pumps over the next two years are moving ahead, said Lucy Norton, managing director for the Iowa Renewable Fuels Association. A state law does not require U.L.-approved dispensers until July 1, 2009, and the state fire marshal has said the certification issue “will not have any immediate effect on the dispensing of E85 in the state,” Ms. Norton said.
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Revision
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 194
Location: Carol Stream, IL
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.grainnet.com/articles/American_Coalition_for_Ethanol_Clears_Confusion_Surrounding_UL_s_E85_Safety_Decision_-38597.html
| Quote: |
American Coalition for Ethanol Clears Confusion Surrounding UL's E85 Safety Decision
Sioux Falls, SD –- In the face of confusion over Underwriters Laboratories’ (UL) recent decision to rescind its earlier approval of some E85 pump components, the American Coalition for Ethanol (ACE) Oct. 31 sought to help clarify what the ruling actually means.
Because the decision has been reported by some as a change in UL’s approval of “ethanol” pumps, rather than correctly identifying it as a ruling that only affects E85, ACE has received many inquiries from petroleum marketers who are concerned that they might need to change pumps used to dispense E10 or other ethanol blends.
“It’s important to be clear that Underwriters Laboratories’ decision has absolutely no impact on pumps that dispense ethanol blends up to 10 percent,” said Ron Lamberty, ACE Vice President / Market Development.
All vehicles made and marketed in the U.S. can use fuel with up to 10% ethanol.
Overall, ethanol is blended into 46% of the nation’s gasoline, most as E10.
Flexible fuel vehicles can operate on gasoline or any blend of ethanol up to E85, 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. E85 is currently available at about 1,000 of the nation’s 170,000 gas stations.
ACE also pointed out that the E85 pump certification change does not mean that all E85 pumps will be shut down.
Underwriters Laboratories, on its own, has no legal authority. A UL listing for fuel pumps is only required in states or municipalities which have written such a requirement into their laws – so the group’s decision will affect E85 pumps in some, but not all, locations.
In many cities and states this issue has already been addressed, and E85 fuel will continue to be available while UL studies the issue further.
“We also want to make it very clear that the UL decision did not come in response to any service problems or incidents,” Lamberty added.
“The overwhelming majority of E85 pumps in use today are gas pumps converted for the alternative fuel, and in the decade or more since E85 has been sold, there have been no safety or maintenance issues with these pumps.”
On its own website, UL says: “To date there have been no documented reports of corrosion for UL Listed or Recognized components used with E85. No field incidents related to UL Listed or Recognized components used with E85. No reported safety issues associated with Listed or
Recognized components used with E85.”
Along with the U.S. Department of Energy, UL is co-sponsoring an E85 Compatibility Technical Forum on November 1-2, 2006 to obtain additional advice to aid in the development of specifications for E85 pumps.
The American Coalition for Ethanol is a grassroots trade association for the U.S. ethanol industry with more than 1400 members nationwide.
For more information, visit www.ethanol.org. or call kristin Brekke at 605-334-3381.
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mtbottle
Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 46
Location: West Virgnia
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:04 am Post subject: UL suspension |
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This story was way overhyped by the press. I have personally talked to representative from UL and they said what it boiled down to was that a company that had built new e85 pumps had approached them for certification and it was discovered that there was no criteria established for certifying E85 pumps.
Of course the press needed a story so they tweaked it a we bit and gave the wrong impression when they said that E85 was damaging pumps. According to UL there have been no reports with this happening.
_________________
Duane Combs |
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hotrod
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 872
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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I agree!
On one of the other forums I spend time on someone "breathlessly announced that article". When I commented on the fact that the media missrepresented the issue, he came back with a "Oh its a media conspiricy --- blah blah blah" response.
Here is my response:
================================================
No it is an inappropriate title!
Instead of "Ethanol Could Corrode Pumps, Testers Say" it should have been "Underwriter labs moves to produce consistant standards for e85 pump equipment".
====================
Here's the orginal UL memo and follow up documents:
Fuel Dispenser Components containing Ethanol & Other Alcohol Blended Fuels
As of October 5, 2006, Underwriters Laboratories Inc. has suspended authorization to use UL Markings (Listing or Recognition) on components for fuel dispensing devices that specifically reference compatibility with alcohol blended fuels that contain greater than 15% alcohol (i.e. ethanol, methanol or other alcohols). Dispenser components as they relate to use with traditional fuel blends (i.e., blended fuels containing 15% or less alcohols) are unaffected. In all cases, acceptability of fuel dispensers for using alcohol-blended fuels containing greater than 15% alcohol (e.g., E-85) remains at the discretion of the Authority Having Jurisdiction.
Research indicates that the presence of high concentrations of Ethanol or other alcohols within blended fuels makes these fuels significantly more corrosive. This may result in the fuel chemically attacking the materials used in fuel dispenser components, and may ultimately degrade the dispenser’s ability to contain the fuel. While UL has no evidence of field issues related to this application, we are suspending authorization to use the UL Mark on components used in dispensing devices that will dispense any alcohol blended fuels containing over 15% alcohol until updated certification requirements are established and the effected components have been found to comply with them.
Our engineers are actively reviewing current E-85 research and meeting with industry and government experts to gather the information required to draft the revised certification requirements. UL anticipates that testing of E-85 dispenser components will commence immediately following publication of UL's E-85 certification requirements, as they pertain to the use of these higher alcohol blended fuels on dispenser a system. We remain committed to undertaking in an expeditious manner the thorough and broad based effort necessary to develop the appropriate requirements that will adequately address E-85 compatibility.
We are here to answer any questions you may have and will respond promptly to your inquires. For comments or questions, please contact us at UL.Notification@us.ul.com.
==========================
Follow up memo from UL
Additional Information on Authorization Suspension of Dispenser Components for use with E-85
On October 5, 2006, Underwriters Laboratories suspended authorization for manufacturers to use UL Markings (Listing or Recognition) on components for fuel dispensing devices that specifically reference compatibility with alcohol blended fuels that contain greater than 15% alcohol (i.e. ethanol, methanol or other alcohols). For your reference, the complete October 5th announcement is available at [url]http://www.ul.com/gasandoil/ethanol.html)[/url].
The following provides background information and answers to commonly asked questions related to our recent suspension. We hope this is of use in making acceptance decisions of ethanol fuel dispensing installations in your jurisdiction.
No Existing Safety Requirements for E-85 Dispensers
UL Standard 87 includes safety requirements for power-operated dispensing devices for petroleum products, such as gasoline for use as motor fuel. This Standard does not address safety requirements for using alternative fuels, such as E-85, within those dispensers. Published studies on ethanol indicate that-in high concentrations-it may have significantly enhanced corrosive effects versus traditional gasoline. Prior to testing and potentially certifying E-85 rated dispensers, UL must establish the appropriate safety requirements, taking into consideration relevant technical issues such as material compatibility unique to these products.
No Reported Safety Incidents for UL Listed or Recognized Sub-Assemblies with E-85
The need to establish consistent and appropriate safety requirements for E-85 dispensers and components was the impetus for suspending authorization to use UL Markings (Listing or Recognition) on components for fuel dispensing devices using E-85. UL has never certified a dispenser for use with E-85. An E-85 dispenser manufacturer approached UL in May 2006 with the first request for a certification of an E-85 dispenser. UL quickly identified the need to establish safety requirements for E-85 dispenser products prior to certification so any material compatibility issues could be addressed. The decision to suspend authorization for components quickly followed, so the new requirements could be applied consistently across all related products (i.e., dispensers and components).
To date there have been:
No documented reports of corrosion for UL Listed or Recognized components used with E-85
No field incidents related to UL Listed or Recognized components used with E-85
No reported safety issues associated with Listed or Recognized components used with E-85
Timing Associated with the Development of Safety Requirements
Our technical experts are currently reviewing research to verify material compatibility with E-85. We will co-sponsor an E-85 Compatibility Technical Forum on November 1-2, 2006 with the US Department of Energy to obtain additional advice pursuant to UL establishing performance criteria and offering a Listing program for E-85 dispensers. Timing associated with development of the requirements depends upon the availability of material compatibility research gathered before and during the forum. We will provide an update shortly after the forum concludes.
Please view a list of Commonly Asked Questions.
While there have been no reported safety issues related to UL Listed or Recognized components used with E-85, UL remains committed to developing the appropriate safety requirements that will adequately address safety concerns. If you have questions or concerns, please feel free to contact one of the following staff members.
=======================
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UL has never issued a certification for a complete pump only for sub assemblies, and they realized the testing protocols and body of research available at the time they certified the sub assemblies produced sub assemblies that were not tested and certified to a common consistant standard for the effects of E85 and high blends of ethanol. The fact that with over 1000 public fueling outlets and years of field experience, distributing several billion gallons of the fuel each year, has shown NO known problems with the current modified dispensers should say something.
(manufactures were already retrofitting pump systems themselves for E85 usage, to account for the different chemical properties of ethanol, so the E85 dispensers are not identical to the gasoline only version in any case).
Larry |
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Revision
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 194
Location: Carol Stream, IL
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:13 am Post subject: E85 Pumps and UL Followup |
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Blah blah blah. The conspiricy continues. And I didn't write anything misleading. I'm just posting news articles that seem relevant. Yes, the media does tend to be overzealous about reporting anything that doesn't seem exciting enough. But its up to us to pick it apart in discussions.
I'm glad we're finally starting a discussion on this. But the problem seems to be working itself out. (read story below). On the other hand, if it does turn out that UL had some kind of outside influence on its evaluation of its testing, it could spell trouble for UL's reputation. Or this could just be a growing pain that will just end up being good for the E85 industry as there is a need for a well published set of guidelines and standards. Of which will hopefully put and end to the "FEAR" of using ethanol because it will "corrode your car and turn it into a fireball". (ie put an end to the myths)
Read me:
Summary, local fire officials work around UL recindication (is that a word?) of modified for E85 pumps.
---
http://www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/business/1162546859124470.xml&coll=2
| Quote: | Fire official gives Ohio green light for ethanol
Friday, November 03, 2006
John Funk
Plain Dealer Reporter
The Ohio fire marshal has issued a temporary policy allowing filling stations to sell the ethanol-gasoline blend called E85 without violating the state fire code.
Such pumps have technically been illegal since early last month, when Underwriters Laboratories pulled its approval of the dispensers until it develops new standards and tests - a process that could take months or even years. All state fire codes require that gasoline pumps carry UL approval.
Late Thursday, State Fire Marshal Stephen Woltz said his agency will consider applications for a variance on that requirement until July 2009 if:
Advertisement
Manufacturers of pumps certify the dispensers are compatible with ethanol blends and are not public hazards. Other states modifying their fire codes have made the same requirement.
The dispensers comply with National Fire Protection Association standards for pumping E-15, the blend of 15 percent ethanol. UL has not pulled its approval of such pumps.
Pump manufacturers seek approval from UL or other testing agencies for pumps designed to dispense E85 exclusively. UL is already testing such equipment.
Ohio's change follows similar revisions in Michigan, Minnesota and Iowa. It came as UL wrapped up two days of hearings at its headquarters near Chicago to come up with new E85 standards.
Only specially modified cars, called "flex fuel" vehicles, can burn E85.
The Bush administration has urged the use of E85 because the ethanol is distilled from homegrown corn rather than oil and burns cleaner. U.S. carmakers have pledged to produce more flex fuel cars.
Existing E85 pumps at more than 1,000 stations across the nation are modified gasoline pumps.
Over the last decade, UL has approved modifications that manufacturers made to convert those pumps. The upgrades included replacing soft metals like aluminum with stainless steel and replacing ethanol-soluble rubber and some plastics with tougher materials.
But UL pulled its approval of these components after it began testing an all-new pump designed exclusively for E85, because its engineers began to worry that the standards they used to test the parts might not have been stringent enough. UL conceded, though, that it knew of no corrosion problems with pumps that had been modified to handle E85.
Of the 14 stations in Ohio selling E85, three shut down their pumps. The Columbus fire marshal ordered two shut in that city. The department's fire marshal office did not return calls Thursday. Marathon Oil pulled the plug on E85 pumps at a Speedway station in Hilliard. A spokesman said the company would review the fire code modifications.
To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:
jfunk@plaind.com, 216-999-4138
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hotrod
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 872
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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I never said you posted anything missleading, I was refering to the moron editors that wrote the story.
Larry |
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Revision
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 194
Location: Carol Stream, IL
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cessna
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 52
Location: Iowa
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| Bureaucracy like this is what breeds terrorism. Big oil has to be behind the UL feet dragging. |
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stylin99
Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 85
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| cessna wrote: | | Bureaucracy like this is what breeds terrorism. Big oil has to be behind the UL feet dragging. |
Big oil is behind everything. Did you see the Dateline special where Kosla (billionaire behind E85 support) even said an exec came up to him and "warned him" that they could drop the price of gas?
It will get worse before it gets better. Sadly, I believe E85 will have to survive a competition war with oil producers. Gas prices will probably plummet in 2007 to keep people from realizing any monetary gains from using Ethanol. And of course there's the restriction by Exxon, Amoco, etc for their licensed stations not being allowed to sell E85.
The Ethanol chemists will have to figure out this cellulosic crap pretty fast to pump up the cost savings and translate that to less cost of E85 at the pump. Corn is only the stepping stone to what we'll really be using to make our ethanol.
Sorry for the off topic rant.
_________________
'99 Mustang GT, Vortech Supercharged, now running E85 full time.
www.e85mustangs.com
Best Quarter Mile on E85:
10.52 at 135 mph |
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Revision
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 194
Location: Carol Stream, IL
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:01 am Post subject: A bit of everything |
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Highlights
* We use 140 billion gallons of gasoline a year.
* 11.4 billion gallons of ethanol is slated to come online. Meaning we are reaching the 10% mark.
* Walmart won't start offering E85 till mid 2008. Meaning Walmart will offer E85, but wants to wait till UL certifies the pumps.
* UL Won't finish certifying the E85 pumps till 2nd quarter of 2008. Wonder what the hold up is all about?
/me wonders if Walmart will be smart and install blender pumps?
http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070122/BUSINESS/701220312
| Quote: | Ethanol might flood market
Experts worry about surplus
BY PHILIP BRASHER
GANNETT NEWS SERVICE ADVERTISEMENT
WASHINGTON - Experts are beginning to worry that the rush to build ethanol plants will cause a quick saturation of the market, with more ethanol available than drivers are willing or able to buy.
The nation now uses about 140 billion gallons of gasoline per year, and if all of it contained 10 percent ethanol (in an additive form known as E10), refiners would need 14 billion gallons of ethanol.
The industry's production capacity will reach 11.4 billion gallons per year once existing construction projects are completed. And numerous additional plants are being planned around the country, including four projects announced last week by agribusiness giant Cargill Inc.
"The time when ethanol will saturate the blend (E10) market is on the horizon, and the industry is looking forward to new market opportunities such as E85," Ron Miller, president of Aventine Renewable Energy LLC, said in testimony to the Senate Agriculture Committee last week.
The industry is counting on boosting the sales of E85, a higher blend of ethanol that is 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline, and is looking for Congress to help increase its availability and use. One bill introduced by Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., a possible presidential candidate, would create a new tax credit to cut the price of E85.
But finding an E85 pump will continue to be difficult. Wal-Mart and other major retailers won't offer the fuel until mid-2008, at the earliest.
"It's a little worrisome that the industry might be overbuilding to their own detriment," said Ron Litterer of Greene, Iowa, a leader of the National Corn Growers Association and an investor in the Midwest Grain Processors ethanol plant at Lakota.
Nationwide, about 1,000 locations among 170,000 service stations sell E85, according to the National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition. A federal tax credit of up to $30,000 was enacted to help defray the cost of converting stations to sell the fuel.
But the opening of new stations was slowed considerably by the decision of Underwriters Laboratories last year to suspend its certification of E85 service-station dispensers. UL, an independent organization that certifies the safety of everything from toasters to gasoline pumps, has decided to develop standards for certifying the pumps but first will have to research the impact of alcohol fuel on pump parts.
In high concentrations, alcohol can corrode some types of metal, such as aluminum, and damage conventional rubber fittings and hoses. E85-compatible pumps are manufactured or retrofitted with different materials.
Wal-Mart and other major retailers have put off installing E85 pumps at their filling stations until UL finishes the certification process, likely in the second quarter of 2008, said Phil Lampert, executive director of the ethanol vehicle coalition.
"We are certainly interested in getting that (research) going so that down the road we can initiate testing of dispensers," said John Drengenberg, UL's consumer affairs manager.
Increased use of E85 will be necessary both for corn-derived ethanol as well as ethanol that would be distilled from other sources, such as crop residue, trees and perennial grasses.
A group of 37 state governors, including outgoing Iowa Gov. Tom Vilsack, asked Congress last week to take steps to increase the availability of E85 and the number of motor vehicles that can use it. The governors called for providing financial incentives to automobile manufacturers to equip vehicles to run on E85. About 8 percent of the nation's cars and trucks can now run on the fuel.
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Revision
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 194
Location: Carol Stream, IL
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:43 am Post subject: |
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Another UL / E85 Pump Certification Update
http://www.dtnethanolcenter.com/index.cfm?show=10&mid=56&pid=24
| Quote: | | Underwriters Laboratories expects to finalize research and publish certification requirements for E85 fuel-dispensing equipment by the end of 2007, according to a news release from the organization. |
So certification has been pushed back from 2nd quarter of 2007 to 4th quarter. |
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specialgreen
Site Admin
Joined: 10 Jul 2004
Posts: 259
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Imagine if someone came to UL and said "The auto-shutoff design on pumps has been failing in Fort Yukon, Alaska. I have a new patented design for a pump that is reliable to -60F. Will you give it your UL listing for cold-weather fuel dispensers?". UL could decide that a new certification is needed for cold-weather applications. Or they could decide that the criteria for the existing certification needs to be broadened.
I've seen many references to UL "pulling its certification" of E-85 pumps. From what I read, there never was a UL certification of pumps for use dispensing E-85. It sounds like there was a UL certification for parts used to dispense motor fuel; MTBE-blended and ethanol-blended fuels may or may not have been specifically tested as part of that.
Someone asked UL to certify a pump design specifically for E-85, and UL decided that request must be evidence that E-85 is different enough to warrant its own testing. Designing a new UL listing is only one option. |
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