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Plastic
Joined: 02 Feb 2011
Posts: 5
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 Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:04 am Post subject: E85 on regular car. |
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Hi all.
I live in Lithuania and our gas dealers introduced the E85 recently. The E15 was for a some time now, but E85 is quite new.
My car is 1999 Opel Vectra (also known as Vauxhall Vectra or Holden Vectra or Chevrolet Vectra). The engine is 1.8l ecotec (X18XEV) with full fuel injection with no convert kit or plug.
I'm using E15 for a some time now, drove about 3000km on it and had no issues. The car runs fine, starts fine even at cold days ( up to - 25 celsius, or -13 fahrenheit). It looks like the car got some extra power when i made a switch to E15 from regular gas.
Few days ago I fueled my car with E85 (just for testing purposes). The tank was almost empty so I think I got about E70 mixture.
The engine started with no problems, the feeling of driving the car is same as with E15. Have no problems with cold starts (up to -5 celsius or 23 fahrenheit).
So i want to ask some questions.
Can I ruin my car if i keep on E85? How regularly i have to check my rubber hoses and which ones?
Do I need to put a conversion kit or plug if I want to keep drive on E85?
I want to highlight once again that my car is totally stock and it runs on E85 as well as on regular gas. What consequences may I have if I keep using E85?  
Thanks in advance. |
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hobbesnmina2001
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:28 am Post subject: |
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I can only tell you from the efi cars I have run ethanol %'s in and in my vehicles for transportation they run OK on various levels of ethanol. You will feel more torque specially low from the alcohol but the issue is if you run it all out because the engine will be lean at top rpms.
I have logged my vehicles computers and one can see the injection duty cycle get pegged before top rpm so then there is no more fuel. Afctually at 90% plus your injector is virtually always open.
Without retuning the computer and installing larger injectors you could help the situation some if ou have a return injection fuel line by adding in an adjustable pressure regulator but understand raising the fuel pressure is a law of diminishing returns somewhat if you raise the fuel pressure a lot. If you put in bigger injectors the engine will need a tune because the computer will not know the injectors are dumping more fuel.
You can also run the fuel pump with a new #10 or #12 wire directly from the alternator and use the present fuel pump circuit with a relay to turn on and off the fuel pump. This provides a slightly higher voltage 1-1.5 volts and more amps so the fuel pump will push 10-15% more fuel volume. This too will help but again is not enough for long high rpm use because the engine will need 30-40% more fuel volume at top end for e85 use.
Another trick is with relays and a second smaller battery to step up the voltage by setting up the batteries in series and providing 24 volts to the fuel pum for the top rpm charge. The issue then is you still need a tune up or adjust the top fuel pressure so the injector get what they need. I have only read about this, have not triend it but it is an old racers trick and suppossedly the fuel pump will take 18-24 volts specially on a temporary basis without issue. Lots of racers provide higher voltage to starters and ignition and do OK.
Disclaimer Any of these ideas need to be thought out carefully and the person using the idea needs to be responsible for the results they get!
Hope his helps.
_________________
2003 Chevy Silverado 2500 HD, 6.0 L non flex fuel, now E85 stimulated! 
2002 Z06 Vette getting liquored up!!
48 Anglia motor last ran methanol to be E85 stimulated as well!! |
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hobbesnmina2001
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:56 am Post subject: |
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One question not directly answered is the engine should not suffer from the higher ethanol %, however the engine will suffer from running lean and that will happen at the higher engine speeds not low rpms and cruise. The computer reads air fuel ratio in lambda so the regular enrichment tune should provide enough (not optimum but sufficient) fueling for regular low rpm and cruise, but not enough for high performance use because the the system will run out of injector sooner.
The bottom line though is without proper tuning and volume you will not get the most out of e85.
As an alternative I have found a reasonable % of ethanol for my stock vehicles to be 20-25%, maybe 30% with the fuel pump hot wire without retuning.
At 20-22% ethanol by volume they run like on premium fuel and the fuel mpg economy does not suffere greatly! In our area my ethanol enhanced fuel cost is less then premium fuel so a small mpg loss is offset. 
_________________
2003 Chevy Silverado 2500 HD, 6.0 L non flex fuel, now E85 stimulated!
2002 Z06 Vette getting liquored up!!
48 Anglia motor last ran methanol to be E85 stimulated as well!! |
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Plastic
Joined: 02 Feb 2011
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, your ideas are good, but I'm not a racer, rather a calm driver, who drives 50% of the time in city traffic and 50% on a highway. In city I don't exceed 80km/h or 50 mph (about 2500 rpm) and on highway 130km/h or 80 mph (3500 rpm). So, I think, for this kind of driving, I don't need to make any tricks to the car, or I'm wrong?
Somewhere I read that using E85 on regular car (without Flex-Fuel) can burn out car's valves, because E85 burns slower. Is this true?
And what about rubber erosion and metal corrosion and etc.?
Last edited by Plastic on Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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hotrod
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 872
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Somewhere I read that using E85 on regular car (without Flex-Fuel) can burn out car's valves, because E85 burns slower. Is this true? |
No not true. Burned valves are caused by high combustion temperatures and improper ignition timing where the fuel air charge is still burning when the exhaust valve opens.
With a proper tune, E85 will actually lower exhaust gas temperatures (for the same power level) by about 200 deg F. It also burns faster than an equivalent gasoline fuel air mixtures at normal max power fuel mixtures like you use at wide open throttle for passing etc.
That comment is based on 40 year old problems with the engines of the 1970's when we first started adding ethanol to gasoline. Those engines had carburetor which leaned out the fuel air mixture at all power settings, so even at light throttle cruise like you would use on the highway the mixture went very lean (which burns hotter).
Modern electronic fuel injection cars, constantly tune the fuel air mixture at light throttle mixtures so they actually run a bit cooler at highway cruise than they would on gasoline. The very rich mixtures often used for max power on gasoline are still rich enough not to cause problems unless you are running higher than stock turbo boost or some other high performance modifications.
Most modern cars (in the U.S.) have fuel lines that have no significant problems with E85. I ran the stock fuel system in my Subaru WRX for a couple years after converting to E85 and the rubber lines looked like new when I upgraded the fuel system to a high flow high performance setup. Corrosion is a non-issue on sealed fuel system cars and with modern E85 which in the U.S. includes a corrosion inhibitor and tight limits for corrosive compounds like acids that sometimes exist in fuel alcohol if not properly purified before blending with gasoline.
Larry |
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hobbesnmina2001
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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for just regular transportation I have a friend that has a 90's Chevy that has used e85 for a few years, no tune just raised the fuel pressure and the car ran fine.
I think when using the higher % ethanol without a tune you need to look at fuel cost vs gasoline or 20-25% ethanol mix because the mpg will be less so the fuel cost should be less or it wont be worth your while.
The main reason I gave the warnings and disclaimers is one never knows who they are talking to and people will easily take things out of context. The decision needs to be a thoughtful individual decision to modify your car or fuel make up.
I have 3 transportation cars that I use the fuel in varying % and I have not had any negative issues. We only have had ethanol in our area for more or less then 2 years
_________________
2003 Chevy Silverado 2500 HD, 6.0 L non flex fuel, now E85 stimulated!
2002 Z06 Vette getting liquored up!!
48 Anglia motor last ran methanol to be E85 stimulated as well!! |
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Mike Broadbookd
Joined: 02 Feb 2011
Posts: 1
Location: Tulsa, OK
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| E85 does make for hard cold starts. You might add 35% E10 to assist in cold weather. |
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Plastic
Joined: 02 Feb 2011
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| Yes E85 cost less then regular gas. In Lithuania liter of ordinary gas is about 1.7 U.S. $ and liter of E85 around 1.3 U.S. $. So its a bit cheaper, but quite expensive at the same time. |
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hobbesnmina2001
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:59 am Post subject: |
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as a rough rule $1.30 per liter is 76% of the gas cost so if your mileage drop was less then 24% or the cost of ethanol was more then 24% cheaper the E85 would save you money.
The reason I like a 20-25% ethanol mix is because the performance is as good as premium with an increase in torque and the mpg drop is hardly noticeable The fuel cost does drop because the ethanol portion costs less and the equivalent of premium fuel is less then regular gas I call that a win win! 
Not all vehicles drop equal in mpg so the answer is testing and keeping notes to find the break even points cost wise.
_________________
2003 Chevy Silverado 2500 HD, 6.0 L non flex fuel, now E85 stimulated!
2002 Z06 Vette getting liquored up!!
48 Anglia motor last ran methanol to be E85 stimulated as well!! |
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Plastic
Joined: 02 Feb 2011
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all your replays. I think now I will play with ethanol mixtures to get the right %.
Anyone who has used E85 on regular cars are welcome to post his/her opinion here. |
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hobbesnmina2001
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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your welcome and do let us know how you and others in Lithuania make out make out using the fuel. I have heard E85 is popular as a performance fuel in Sweeden.
_________________
2003 Chevy Silverado 2500 HD, 6.0 L non flex fuel, now E85 stimulated!
2002 Z06 Vette getting liquored up!!
48 Anglia motor last ran methanol to be E85 stimulated as well!! |
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