E85Forum.com

murphinator · Joined: 08 Jan 2010 Posts: 93

looking to do this also but in reading the forms to get the federal permits I am getting the impression that you cant keep the still or the fuel at your house ?? , everything seems to be geared for doing it as a business

am I looking in the wrong places ? or reading it wrong ? under 10,000 gallons a year is the lowest option I am seeing and every search keeps linking me to these same forms

thanks in advance Cool

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PB's 1/4 mi 12.209, 117.75 trap ,1/8 mi 7.76 ,93.99 trap , 1.949 short time 4.53 0-60

I tune with HP Tuners software

hotrod · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 872 Location: Colorado

I think you are reading too much into the apps, if you manufacture 10 gallons a year you would be in the less than 10,000 gallons catagory.

They consider anything less than 10,000 gallons to be non-commercial such as fuel for a farmer to use for his own purposes.

The requirements make it difficult to brew in a city because of the access control requirements, but easy to do for someone with a rural property that can satisfy their rules.

Larry

murphinator · Joined: 08 Jan 2010 Posts: 93

thanks Larry Very Happy

I would like to be able to store the still & mash when not in use in my garage or basement and some ethanol in my garage.

Most of it would go directly in one of my vehicles but it would be nice to be able to store a few gallons which would immediately be denatured as I would be mixing it with gas. I would distill outdoors.
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PB's 1/4 mi 12.209, 117.75 trap ,1/8 mi 7.76 ,93.99 trap , 1.949 short time 4.53 0-60

I tune with HP Tuners software

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

You have likely been to these sites but here are a few that might help;

http://www.permaculture.com/

http://www.journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me2.html#table

Thumpin455 · Joined: 04 Oct 2008 Posts: 227

It depends more on where you live and the local laws/ordinances, if any. You cant operate the still inside a dwelling and they have concerns with nearby bodies of water and other things of that nature. Its more to make sure you arent doing anything to screw up your surrounding area. It also cannot be portable, meaning you should have one location where you ferment/distill and not have it on the back of a trailer or truck.

The best thing to do is start the process, but they like for you to have a still before you apply unless something has changed recently. They dont want to give out permits that people wont use because of how busy they have/had been.

Over 10,000 proof gallons (that is 5000 actual gallons strange I know) you need to be bonded. Less than that much and you can do pretty much whatever you like as far as production limits. Dont worry about the process so much, just get in touch and start working things out. They will let you know what you can and cannot do.

What feedstock do you plan to use?

Life got in my way last year and I didnt do anything with the fuel project, didnt make anything. This year I plan to make quite a bit of fuel with anything and everything I can find. The sites Alcohol provided are a good place to start, also there is a Yahoo group that might be able to help.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/alcoholfuel/

Here is another resource for you, some knowledgeable people here.

http://acbagnetwork.ning.com/forum
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1970 Pontiac GeTOh 455 with a Qjet.
1998 Pontiac Formula LS1 on yeast pee.

murphinator · Joined: 08 Jan 2010 Posts: 93

thanks thumpin.

looking to start real small with a 10 quart stainless pressure cooker still I made from watching a lot of vids on you tube ( havent used it yet) and use sugar , mollasses ,etc.. initially easy stuff to ferment and as I get a system down move towards free discarded produce ( I have a couple friends that own corner markets ,restaurants ,subway franchises etc...)

or whatever seems inexpensive and easy/simple and use the knowledge I gain from the small scale to expand to a larger still maybe based on a 55 gal stainless drum - which I see will require notification of changes to operation.

probably my biggest dilemna is I live in my house about 5 months a year and at my camp on the water 7 months a year , I visit my camp often when at my house but dont visit my house all that often when at my camp.

camp being on the water sounds like it could be an issue allthough I dont see what products used in distilling a few gallons at a time could cause any impact...

I also have a 3 acre field , commercially zoned 1/4 mile from my camp if I wanted to build a small secure building specific but would have to spend about 3 grand to get it out of open space to put a building on it and I am not prepared to do that at this point. of course I could also plant corn or something on my lot to ferment - havent done the research about sugar beets in my climate but potatoes arent a problem

as you can see lots to think about between locations and how/where I want to get permitted so I figured start small and go from there

where do you store your still when not in use , your ethanol after production , your mash while fermenting , and what scale is your operation ?
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PB's 1/4 mi 12.209, 117.75 trap ,1/8 mi 7.76 ,93.99 trap , 1.949 short time 4.53 0-60

I tune with HP Tuners software

Thumpin455 · Joined: 04 Oct 2008 Posts: 227

Well first you dont need stainless steel boilers and fermenters. You can use plastic drums for fermenting, or 5 gallon buckets if you want to go small. A ten quart still will give you roughly 1 quart of usable fuel. The ratio of water to ethanol is ten gallons to one, meaning for the yeast to survive you need lots of water for them to move around as well as to keep them from killing themselves off with a high ethanol content.

That means you need a pretty good water supply, without rust in it because yeast dont like rust. My ground water has rust in it here, I live on top of a huge iron deposit. So I am working on catching rain and snow melt in large tanks to supply my needs.

I use 5 gallon buckets and a plastic 55 gallon drum to ferment. I have a couple 20 gallon drums that I use as boilers. I am planning on using larger boilers and fermenters this year. Quite probably the fermentation tanks will be sourced at Tractor Supply Co, such as the tanks that fit in the back of a pickup. They cant be exposed to direct sunlight, so I have to keep them under some shade, which isnt a problem here.

My still is not attached directly to the boilers, I have a line running to the still so I can control the temperatures easier. Its called a divorced still, as opposed to one that is mounted directly to the boiler. Google PVC stills and you will see what I mean. Yeah you can make them from simple PVC plumbing pipe/tubing, but you have to keep it away from the heat of the boiler.

I store my still and fuel in my shop where I build cars. Right now its leaning against the bumper of my 65 GTO in the back of the shop. The shop is about 75ft from my house and I dont do any distilling inside the shop. Its all done behind the larger storage shed with no trees or other fire hazards nearby. They want to know its a secure location so nobody steals your fuel and drinks it, or sets fire to it, dumps it, whatever.. Mostly they are concerned about the taxes on drinkable alcohol.

I want to make about 500 gallons total each year, that would be more than enough for my vehicles, a generator, and enough for me to go racing again. If I can make 1000 gallons then I wont have to do it quite as often, and it would last me quite a while. My problem then would be storage, but that just means a larger tank out of the sunlight that isnt accessible to the general public.

Last year I didnt make any fuel. Not a single drop. Life got in the way and I had other things more pressing to deal with. The previous year I made about 20 gallons total. 09 was a very thin year financially. This year I need to make quite a bit more and that means I am investing in tools and equipment, not to mention building a high compression engine to run on the stuff... With luck the engine will be together within the next two weeks and running by May.

With any luck at all I wont have similar issues like I have since 07 that prevent me from expanding the project.
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1970 Pontiac GeTOh 455 with a Qjet.
1998 Pontiac Formula LS1 on yeast pee.

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

Could you use less water and still get 12.8-13.4% beer if you circulate the ferms like commercial ethanol plants Thumpin? I know we run our solids higher for stronger beer but again this is with circulation and cooling.

Thumpin455 · Joined: 04 Oct 2008 Posts: 227

Yeah you get a better yield when its agitated and cooled. Yeast make heat while they eat and excrete ethanol and CO2. If it gets too warm they die, if it gets too cold it takes forever to ferment.

Also how much alcohol % the yeast can handle varies from strain to strain, and how long they have been on the shelf makes a difference as well. Getting 5 gallons of fuel from a 55 gallon fermenter still isnt bad, you just need a bunch of barrels all fermenting at once. When its taking this much manual labor you dont want to have to do more work, and trying to use a bit less water in each batch will just lower the yield, unless the yeast can handle a higher %.

Its not like you cant use the water again, provided you dont have rust in it. Yeast dont like rust, thats the reason most people say you should use stainless or copper for the boiler/fermenter. We arent worried about taste, just rust. My boilers are steel, and they dont get direct heat either. My boiler platform has baffles in it so the air around the drum is uniform and the flame isnt directly on the barrel. They also tend to last longer that way.

Batch systems are a bit more labor intensive, but its initially cheaper to start and learn. It would be nice to just put the feedstock in one end and have it all automated so all you do is change ethanol tanks and move the leftover solids from the mash. That costs money though. Smile

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1970 Pontiac GeTOh 455 with a Qjet.
1998 Pontiac Formula LS1 on yeast pee.

murphinator · Joined: 08 Jan 2010 Posts: 93

good info here... so you need to put the water right to it then expect only 10 % ethanol - hadnt seen that info anywhere , I guess the guys with pressure cooker stills must be running rc cars on them or drinking it

as far as too hot kills it too cold =slow fermentation what is the ideal temp range ?

%
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PB's 1/4 mi 12.209, 117.75 trap ,1/8 mi 7.76 ,93.99 trap , 1.949 short time 4.53 0-60

I tune with HP Tuners software

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

I could ask the plant guys what temps they hold the ferms at Murph but this would only be true for the yeast we use.

I only brought up the water dilution of the fermentation because it affects how much more volume must be heated to evap the ethanol. All processes are going to end with beer 9-14% that must further be concentrated (primarily vis distillation). Commercial plants will strive for 14% beer and ideally 3 gal E100/ bushel of corn. A commercial plant has to be very efficient or it will fail- home brewers do not need to worry so much about energy efficiency or even feedstock efficiency since they are trading labor and low cost for capital investment.

What a home brewer does is a lot different than commercial in part as Thumpin says- it takes money to "do the fancy". We pull a vacuum on the distillation towers to pull the evap with less energy/better yield. We use molecular sieves to get the last 5% water and there is a series of "effects" used to enrich the alcohols before main distillation and pull off mash (and the trace alcohols on them). We even prop our yeast in a separate tank using only a small amount of purchased yeast- then quickly grow it out before any wild bugs can invade- this then immediately goes into the enzyme treated corn slurry flowing into a ferm batch for the 30-36 hour ferm.

Thumpin- what are you using for enzymes (if any) to quick convert starch to sugars before fermentation? (in commercial operation this is needed to make the plant more efficient- it happens in 20 min so ferms go to work faster with less time for wild yeast/bacteria to cut yield)

Thumpin455 · Joined: 04 Oct 2008 Posts: 227

I keep mine between 80F and 94F, yeast arent fond of temps above 94F from what I have read. They make heat so its a matter of cooling when you do larger batches.

Different feedstocks and yeast will require differing amounts of water, and yes more water means more energy to boil off the alcohol. Finding the balance between enough water for the yeast to thrive and produce as much fuel as possible, and not needing as much energy to distill it is one of the things you have to work out.

Ive gotten a little bit of alpha and glucoamalayze to do the conversion, but I dont have a good source for them yet. Still need to source that. I also need to set up a system for culturing yeast so I dont have to use as much, but that is a ways down the road for me at this point.

I would love to have a vacuum still, hardly need any heat at all, could almost do it solar with enough vacuum on it. Lower pressure lowers boiling point, higher pressures raise the boiling point. Makes ethanol fun to work with in engines as well as stills.. Smile

The year I had to take off from this project has messed with my memory. I hate losing that much time.
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1970 Pontiac GeTOh 455 with a Qjet.
1998 Pontiac Formula LS1 on yeast pee.

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

Our AA comes in as liquid bulk semi- not sure about the smaller amount of the secondary enzyme. We are running an experiment right now with completely diffferent stuff to help lower viscosities which would lower syrup byproduct and improve distillers grains.

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

In our system fermentation is best started at 90 degrees but once the alcohol content gets in the upper range we lower it to 85 degrees so the ferms will finish with higher alcohol. If held to 90 until the end the final alcohol content is hurt because it is more likely to be toxic to the yeast activity at 90 than at 85.

Solids going into the ferm are 30-32% for best yield with less water to take out in the end. That is not much water (and we recover most of that).

Keep in mind this is for a commercial operation with constant recirculation on the ferms-- I doubt much of this would hold true for home alcohol production except fermentation temps (even that could vary somewhat by yeast selection).

Thumpin455 · Joined: 04 Oct 2008 Posts: 227

It makes sense for me to keep the water instead of dumping it too. Means less I have to collect from rainwater. Im still working out how much solid I can use with the yeasts since its kind of a pioneering effort with the cattails. When I get it worked out I'll let you know what works best.

Different feedstocks have different requirements, finding out what works best is just part of the fun. Smile

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1970 Pontiac GeTOh 455 with a Qjet.
1998 Pontiac Formula LS1 on yeast pee.