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SrtStang
Joined: 22 Dec 2010
Posts: 9
Location: Missouri
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 Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:07 am Post subject: wanting to run E85 or striaght Ethanol with NO Intercooler?? |
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Ok so im building a notchback mustang with an Srt-4 neon motor that is built from top to bottom i will be running a Gt4094r t4 twin scroll turbo set up running around 35-45 psi of boost. i am going to be using -10 feed fuel line and -8 return line i plan on running 8 fuel injectors 4 880cc injectors up close and 4 1600cc injectors behind them for when boost comes on. i was told to do an 80+ psi for a base fuel pressure and rising but i was also told not to do that so hopefully i can get some answers here. i am hoping to make 750+rwhp and i would like to do this all with no intercooler. so what all do you guys suggest to accomplish this goal?
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89 notchback foxbody mustang with an Srt-4 neon motor backed with a chevy th350 trans a gt4094r turbo fully built motor and head planning to run 35-45psi boost on Ethanol while hot air turboing it. 750+rwhp or Bust |
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Eric68
Joined: 01 Nov 2007
Posts: 331
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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I would suggest an intercooler.  Seriously though, an intercooler will make more HP for you at that boost level and the tune window will be bigger. Not that it is very big at 35-45 psi anyway.
We've managed 30 psi in a carbureted small block Chevy with no intercooler and admittedly that is on the ragged edge and we were pulling timing. Maybe you can get by with fuel injection using a more modern effecient combustion chamber and a very good tune but the tune window will be very narrow (meaning if you are not spot on with the tuneup you may need new pistons).
Please don't think I am discouraging you at all, I wish you the best of luck and I hope it works out. Just trying to warn you there is nothing magical about E85 -- its a good fuel and pretty detonation resistant but you can hurt parts with it.
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E85 racer and E85 carb builder
www.horsepowerinnovations.com
E85 powered 68 Camaro street car
Best ET on motor 9.96 @ 133 MPH, 5.92 on N2O in the 1/8th |
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murphinator
Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 9:36 am Post subject: |
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a couple good places to find guys getting away from IC 's on e85 would be..
modular mustangs forum in the e85/e98 section- but you see IC's being deleted on e98 mostly where some see them as a restriction not a benefit on that fuel
turbobuick.com (t types & grand nationals) in the e85 section and the "hot air" section , hot air refers to the turbo buicks built before 86 when the factory added the IC ,there you see no IC and e85 more because the car didnt come with an IC and either due to expense of adding one or wanting to be among the quickest hot air cars seem to be the motivation to continue without an IC
keep us posted on how you make out 
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PB's 1/4 mi 12.209, 117.75 trap ,1/8 mi 7.76 ,93.99 trap , 1.949 short time 4.53 0-60
I tune with HP Tuners software |
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hotrod
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 872
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:29 am Post subject: |
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E85 will help a lot, as mentioned above lots of folks are using it to solve that problem. E85 starts to get into detonation territory around 35 psi, and your tuning window gets very small.
Personally if for some reason (such as packaging) you cannot run an intercooler, I would set it up with E85 and then add a water injection setup that starts spraying at about 25 - 30 psi. That would be a quick and easy way to solve that problem, and with the high boost limit on the water injection (50%water 50% methanol is the usual mixture) you would use very little of the injection mixture in normal driving. A liter bottle of water alcohol mixture would last me 2 tanks of gasoline on my Subaru when I had it set to spray at 10 psi.
Starting point for water spray rates is usually recommended at about 20% of your fuel flow. On the subie (2 liter) I originally used a 7gallon per minute nozzle but later found that it worked just as good at a 4 gallon per minute rate. I was only running 24 psi peak boost on gasoline at the time.
Larry |
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SrtStang
Joined: 22 Dec 2010
Posts: 9
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Ok thanks guys. I don't have a space issue I just want to be even more different with my build and I don't want the extra weight if I don't have to have it I want the car to be around 2500 pounds with me in the car. I also don't really plan on running e85 I'm thinking more along the lines of e98-e100 so any more infor on that and how to set up the fuel system would be nice
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89 notchback foxbody mustang with an Srt-4 neon motor backed with a chevy th350 trans a gt4094r turbo fully built motor and head planning to run 35-45psi boost on Ethanol while hot air turboing it. 750+rwhp or Bust |
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murphinator
Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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I think e98 is as high as you will be able to buy in quantity 100% would be grain alcohol and be subject to taxation as liquor -unless you realllly want to be different and get everclear to sponsor you 
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PB's 1/4 mi 12.209, 117.75 trap ,1/8 mi 7.76 ,93.99 trap , 1.949 short time 4.53 0-60
I tune with HP Tuners software |
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SrtStang
Joined: 22 Dec 2010
Posts: 9
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Ha yeah. I was planning on making my own. And I thought you could buy e100
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89 notchback foxbody mustang with an Srt-4 neon motor backed with a chevy th350 trans a gt4094r turbo fully built motor and head planning to run 35-45psi boost on Ethanol while hot air turboing it. 750+rwhp or Bust |
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hotrod
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 872
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Ha yeah. I was planning on making my own. And I thought you could buy e100 |
Some people call it e100 but by law fuel ethanol must be either E98 or E95 depending on what chemicals are used to denature it to avoid beverage alcohol taxation requirements.
Unless you take special efforts to dry the alcohol the most cost effective concentration is the azeotrope at about 96.4% alcohol and 3.6% water.
To dry it beyond that point you need to use a molecular sieve like zeolite or some similar chemical means to pull the remaining water out.
For you application that "wet" alcohol might be the best thing to use anyway as the little bit of water would help to suppress pre-ignition which is a risk in high boost alcohol motors. The octane of both methanol and ethanol are both so high detonation is seldom an issue and you usually have pre-ignition issues before you get there, especially with hot intake air mixture, and the limited cooling it will provide to the spark plug.
You will want to run very cold plugs -- talk to a Champion racing plug engineer if you can, or someone similar that has experience with high end ethanol engines like the Indy cars.
Larry |
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GOAT8U2
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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First off, what an interesting build, Neon engine in Mustang, whoa.
Don't run 80psi of base pressure, what the hell was that person thinking?
What intank fuel pump can go 80 base pressure and then 40psi of boost?
With the power you're talking about, two new DW300 pumps will handle it no problem and have a 3 year warranty. Base pressure 40psi etc and have at it.
The thing about a turbo at 35-40 psi is that with an intercooler you have pressure drop, so that turbo could be pumping out 38-43 etc psi if not more at that psi. This amount of boost could easily put the comp wheel out of efficiency range.
So you ditch the IC, now you'd need a ton of Meth Injection to help cool that amount of psi, which could be done if you run 3 nozzles and monitor your MAT.
The easiest would be to run a very efficient FMIC and monitor MAT's after that, if you need lower MAT temps go one 15GPH nozzle of straight Meth and make sure your head bolts are all torqued down tight. 
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69 GTO E85 Converted |
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Thumpin455
Joined: 04 Oct 2008
Posts: 227
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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I think you are still thinking gasoline for needing the methanol injection... Why add methanol to ethanol when they do the same thing in regards to cooling the intake charge?
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1970 Pontiac GeTOh 455 with a Qjet.
1998 Pontiac Formula LS1 on yeast pee. |
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SrtStang
Joined: 22 Dec 2010
Posts: 9
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:00 am Post subject: |
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I've heard meth don't make a difference with ethanol and I've heard it does so I'm not sure where to go with that. I know it's possiable to run ethanol and no intercooler I'm going to be running 8 injectors 4 small ones up close and 4 big ones behind them for boost if it don't work out I will look into the intercooler but I really want to save the weight and go hot air turbo if at all possiable
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89 notchback foxbody mustang with an Srt-4 neon motor backed with a chevy th350 trans a gt4094r turbo fully built motor and head planning to run 35-45psi boost on Ethanol while hot air turboing it. 750+rwhp or Bust |
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hotrod
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 872
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Why add methanol to ethanol when they do the same thing in regards to cooling the intake charge? |
Within small limits that statement is true, both will cool the intake charge some, but if you need a lot of cooling (as a hot air system would), the combination would have more cooling ability than either by them selves.
Evaporative cooling only works up to the point that all the liquid is converted to vapor. There is also a time factor. At high rpm there is very little time for the evaporation to take place. By moving some of the cooling out of the cylinder and into the manifold you have time for more cooling to take place.
Last is that liquids evaporate independent of each other. The ethanol would not know that there was methanol in the air stream and the methanol would not know there is ethanol in the air stream, they would both only see the local partial pressure of their own vapor. As a result a mix of multiple different chemicals is capable of more cooling than any one of the component liquids.
Two things will stop evaporation. Either you use up all the liquid and convert it to vapor or you saturate the air mixture with that liquid vapor so it cannot evaporate any more.
In a hot air system I would run water methanol injection placed well back from the intake manifold (as close to the turbo as possible), and then use the E85 normally as the fuel. The water methanol injection would knock the intake air mixture temps down to somewhere below 200 deg F (if you inject enough of it) probably about 135 deg F or so. Then the E85 would take care of the rest.
In WWII fighter aircraft they used two mixtures, they either used a 50/50 mixture of methanol with water or ethanol with water (depending on what they had available), or they used a mixture of methanol, ethanol and water at about 60% alcohol and 40% water if I remember correctly.
larry |
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SrtStang
Joined: 22 Dec 2010
Posts: 9
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:30 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the awesome info Larry any more of this would be greatly apprecited from anyone
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89 notchback foxbody mustang with an Srt-4 neon motor backed with a chevy th350 trans a gt4094r turbo fully built motor and head planning to run 35-45psi boost on Ethanol while hot air turboing it. 750+rwhp or Bust |
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SrtStang
Joined: 22 Dec 2010
Posts: 9
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:29 pm Post subject: few updated pics of the build. |
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figured i would post up some new pics i have so you guys can see the build
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89 notchback foxbody mustang with an Srt-4 neon motor backed with a chevy th350 trans a gt4094r turbo fully built motor and head planning to run 35-45psi boost on Ethanol while hot air turboing it. 750+rwhp or Bust |
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murphinator
Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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looks fabulous !
you going to put egt sensors in each primary or widebands ???
_________________
PB's 1/4 mi 12.209, 117.75 trap ,1/8 mi 7.76 ,93.99 trap , 1.949 short time 4.53 0-60
I tune with HP Tuners software |
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