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87/hatch
Joined: 08 Nov 2010
Posts: 4
Location: ca.
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 Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:40 pm Post subject: wideband sensor |
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I just started runing e85 on friday and now my wideband sensor went out . anyone seen this ?
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Drag Chevette
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 458
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:19 am Post subject: |
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typically caused by excessive moisture in the pipe before the wideband is fully heated, cold water vapor cooked the O2 while it was trying to heat up.
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Alcohol
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 634
Location: Central Wisconsin
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Where did you mount it? For the reason Mark mentioned most mount it in the 10 o'clock to 2 o'clock position. |
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87/hatch
Joined: 08 Nov 2010
Posts: 4
Location: ca.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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10 :00 It's a AEM wideband . Its fine at cruse but when i go wot it reads 18.1 . So i changed back to 91 and added 50% fuel at wot and the car was bucken and it was still reading 18.1 . I called aem and they said thats what it will do when is bad . will e85 take it out sooner then gas ?
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Alcohol
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 634
Location: Central Wisconsin
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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I am going to have to let someone else more knowledgeable answer part of your question- depending on tune and engine design E85 will put a lot more water vapor out the tailpipe. HOWEVER- we have yet to replace an O2 sensor in any of our fleet FFV's which range from 160,000 miles to 233,000 miles each on E85. I am unsure of who's O2 sensor or type (wide/narrow band) that is in them though.
How does the distance from header to mount point compare to an FFV? |
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87/hatch
Joined: 08 Nov 2010
Posts: 4
Location: ca.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:51 am Post subject: |
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My stock o2s are working fine . The aem is a bosh type sensor part # 30-2001 and its like 2 feet from the header flange
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Alcohol
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 634
Location: Central Wisconsin
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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Hatch- I asked that because I have seen where some discussion in the past have debated that distance AND I have seen where several have said they do not turn on the sensor/heater until the engine is warmed up (when using it for the sole purpose of monitoring/logging AFR with an LM1 or 2). Somewhere I recall seeing the discussion that turning it on before it is warmed up will create this issue- makes sense because for example- a Ford Taurus FFV will virtually block rear view the first 1/2 mile with water vapor under 10 degrees F when running E85 yet less than 1/2 the vapor is present when running gas.
Perhaps someone else can chime in on this. |
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skiracer
Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Posts: 140
Location: Los Angeles, Kalifornia
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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I was using Zeitornix's wideband whom uses Bosch 02 sensors. I drove on E85 daily and my wideband lasted at least 3 years before i sold the car.
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'06 Evo IX Stage 1 by RRE,Walbro 255lph fuel pump,RC Engineering1000cc Injectors, AVO exhaust,RRE flash, (325whp @ 22PSI 91 octane, 353whp @ 25psi on 100 octane, 383whp @30psi on E85),Zeitronix wideband/Ethanol Content Analyzer, Defi gauges |
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87/hatch
Joined: 08 Nov 2010
Posts: 4
Location: ca.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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Well i'm not sure why it went bad . I got the new sensor and installed it and it's working fine
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jsiddall
Joined: 06 May 2010
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| Alcohol wrote: | Hatch- I asked that because I have seen where some discussion in the past have debated that distance AND I have seen where several have said they do not turn on the sensor/heater until the engine is warmed up (when using it for the sole purpose of monitoring/logging AFR with an LM1 or 2). Somewhere I recall seeing the discussion that turning it on before it is warmed up will create this issue- makes sense because for example- a Ford Taurus FFV will virtually block rear view the first 1/2 mile with water vapor under 10 degrees F when running E85 yet less than 1/2 the vapor is present when running gas.
Perhaps someone else can chime in on this. |
The only info I have seen says that running the engine without the WBO2 powered will damage the sensor -- at least the Bosch ones.
Also, water vapor will not damage a WBO2 -- it is present in the exhaust gas no matter what hydrocarbon you burn. The issue is liquid water hitting the sensor when it is hot. For that reason it is best to power the heater at the same time you start the engine -- not before and not after. |
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jmarkaudio
Joined: 22 Oct 2010
Posts: 8
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a copy from the Innovate website from Klauss, the man behind the Innovate equipment.
| Quote: | This is a list of what not to do with a WB sensor:
1. Leave unpowered while the engine is running
This carbonizes the sensor and destroys it permanently.
2. Power it up while the engine is stopped and then start the car
This can cause condensation water to be blown at the hot sensor elements. The resulting heat shock can crack the sensor ceramics.
3. Lay it in the tailpipe (without an exhaust clamp).
Water can run into the sensor and destroy it as in 2. It can also fall out (see point 6.)
4. Use penetrants on or near the sensor
Chemicals in penetrants like WD-40 cause a chemical reaction in the sensor ceramics that will destroy the sensor. Even vapor is enough. When sprayed on the sensor cable they can work their way through the cable sheath into the sensor as well.
5. Run it in an 'wet' exhaust
A problem in boats where the exhaust is under water and water can be sucked in the pipe. Y off a seperate 'exhaust pipe' of about 3/4" diameter above the water line and mount the sensor in there.
6. Drag it behind the car
Easy to do when not fixed well to the tailpipe
Half a sensor does NOT show half AFR.
7. Use it as a Lollipop
It does not taste good.
Things that shorten a sensor's lifespan:
1. Leaded or otherwise metallized fuels
On leaded race gas the sensor's lifespan is shortened.
According to the Bosch specs on leaded fuels:
.6 grams lead/liter: 20,000 km
.4 grams lead/liter: 30,000 km
.15 grams lead/liter: 60,000 km
2. Running the sensor overheated for extended periods
When the sensor overheats the LM-1 will first show incredibly lean and then error out with an Error 08.
Use a heat-sink on the sensor (look in the old yahoo forum posts for details).
3. Running continuously very rich
This is only a problem on misadjusted engines. In normal operation, even in racing, there are enough periods with lean or stoich operation that the sensor can clean itself. In drag-racing the shortened lifespan is still long enough to typically outlast the engine. |
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Mark Whitener |
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Alcohol
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 634
Location: Central Wisconsin
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for that post Mark- I had seen that on Innovate too long ago to remember exactly what it said (or even where I had seen it to look it up again)- thus I goofed on my post. I only remembered the part where water drops could get blown on the hot sensor at start up.  So much for getting old  |
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jmarkaudio
Joined: 22 Oct 2010
Posts: 8
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:21 am Post subject: |
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They say you are only as old as you feel, I guess I'm 90... I just bought new O2's for my FAST system, I think I killed them running leaded fuel and not running the O2's full time. Just built an 1150 for E85, two trips to the track on nights with poor traction, no usable O2 data, and a bad, NEW, fuel pressure gauge that ha the pressure over 12 lbs. has made it a bit frustrating. I am scheduled to run on a good track Thursday, with new O2's I should be able to do some useful tuning.
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Mark Whitener |
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Alcohol
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 634
Location: Central Wisconsin
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| jmarkaudio wrote: | | They say you are only as old as you feel, I guess I'm 90... I just bought new O2's for my FAST system, I think I killed them running leaded fuel and not running the O2's full time. Just built an 1150 for E85, two trips to the track on nights with poor traction, no usable O2 data, and a bad, NEW, fuel pressure gauge that ha the pressure over 12 lbs. has made it a bit frustrating. I am scheduled to run on a good track Thursday, with new O2's I should be able to do some useful tuning. |
Good luck on that Mark- be glad you are not up here in Wisconsin stewing over ending that way and wondering if you will get it figured out in time before the spring races begin. |
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jmarkaudio
Joined: 22 Oct 2010
Posts: 8
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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For gas I have a good handle on fixing temperamental Dominators, this is my first shot at E85. Here is a finished pict and some tooling I made up.
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Mark Whitener |
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