E85Forum.com

Fastgrove · Joined: 21 Aug 2010 Posts: 11

I purchased a E85 carb. 500 cfm 2 bbl. I fired it with a Carter 110 gpm pump. It worked fine. I run a circle track Mid-west Modified. 325 hp 9.5 to 1 engine. After about half a race , it quit pumping. 0 pounds of pressure. It has 86 jets. I run from 4000 to 6500 rpms. It was a brand new pump. It was not an alcohol pump but I was told my buddy ran this same fuel pump with no problems.

What mechanical fuel pump should I purchase. Obviously, it should be an alcohol fuel pump! 130 gpm? Bigger? What fuel pressure is recommended. 8 lbs? More...? Is 86 jets going to be big enough for this rpm? I never got a good look at the plugs yet...to peeved off at the quick failure of the pump!!! Thanks in advance!

Drag Chevette · Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 458

get a Holley pump...
86 jet is NOT enough...
who did the carb?
_________________
http://www.marksullense85carburetors.com

Fastgrove · Joined: 21 Aug 2010 Posts: 11

He bought it from someone on the net last year. I'll try and find out! I'm from the Minnesota area so E85 is plentiful but few racers have bothered to use it. All the info I get is very confusing. I did order an alcohol pump from Speedway Motors but it would not fit without buying additional parts, (Remote oil filter adapter and fuel pressure regulator). I took off the Carter (which was working great) but had to put it back on when the alcohol pump would not fit. It was a waste of time...!

THANKS FOR YOUR REPLY! I will send you another carb to modify over the winter and bump my jetting to 92's. I did read that in the circle track magazine for a 4 bbl Holley carb converted. What do you think? Better starting point?

Fastgrove · Joined: 21 Aug 2010 Posts: 11

Now that I found someone who knows E-85, let's talk timing and spark plugs on a engine like mine! The low compression 9.5-1 is a rule so I can't change that. The engine is a Ford 302. What should I look at for timing and spark plugs? NGK recommended a TR6 plug, but I've now been told I should run a stock plug or hotter. My crew chief set the timing at 36 degrees and said it sounded good there. Anybody got any opinion on this? I hate thinking sounds good in the shop means grenade on the track!!!

I'm very worried about using E85 because of all the unknowns and not excited about losing a engine because of this confusion.

Eric68 · Joined: 01 Nov 2007 Posts: 331

You have a wide margin for error with E85 and only 9.5:1 compression. I wouldn't worry about grenading the motor because of a missed tune on E85.

That said, for a car like yours an Autolite AR2935 or NGK racing #7 would be my pick for the heat range.

If you do not have a wide band or EGT to tune with you can still look at the plugs. Look for the color change on the strap to see where the timing is. It should be close to the bend -- closer to the base means too much timing and/or the plus is too hot. If the mark is closer to the tip of the strap the plug is too cold and/or the engine wants more timing.

Read the fire ring on the porcelain just like gasoline. Real wide and toward the tip is too rich.

Hope that helps.
_________________
E85 racer and E85 carb builder
www.horsepowerinnovations.com

E85 powered 68 Camaro street car
Best ET on motor 9.96 @ 133 MPH, 5.92 on N2O in the 1/8th

Fastgrove · Joined: 21 Aug 2010 Posts: 11

I was thinking that the 9.5 - 1 compression would give me lots of room for error. Hell, I could run e10 and probably be safe! Anyway, I appreciate every bit of advice that I can get since there is not a whole lot out there. I'm going to buy a set of Autolites and I appreciate the help!

Fastgrove · Joined: 21 Aug 2010 Posts: 11

Larry Haule from California was the one who built this carb. He paid $295.00 for the complete carb which included a metering block.

Will a gas fuel pump work with e85 or do I have to purchase an alcohol pump for $350+ and a fuel regulator $90 and return line ... for$55??? Did my Carter crash and burn because of the Ethanol? Probably did but I'm not sure? It was a decent 110 gallon per minute fuel pump.

Questions, questions, questions

89shortbox · Joined: 04 Nov 2007 Posts: 153 Location: Michigan

I would take the fuel pump apart and confirm that the diaphram is actually bad. If it isnt it could be a clogged fuel filter . Its believed that in some cases the ethanol strips the tarnish and other petrol bases things off fuel tanks and fuel systems and can sometimes clog a filter shortly after using e85 for the first time.
_________________
----------------------
89 S10
406 SBC Twin Turbo BT
Going E85 this coming season
HAHA, the season is alreay gone to another season.

Drag Chevette · Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 458

Fastgrove · Joined: 21 Aug 2010 Posts: 11

Well, either way or what ever the story on this carb is, I got it . You say the jets are too small but you don't recommend any size. You recommend a Holley pump but you don't say what model number or if it must be a menthanol pump. It certainly a guessing game and now I know why 99% of circle trackers in this area don't bother running E85, when it's plentiful as hell. It's a totally mystery as far as I'm concerned with Ethanol. E85 carb builders saying this and that and whatever. Even the circle track magazine article really said "dick" about running the stuff other than it's cheap. Just my two cents but it seems that unless I send someone $600, I'm not going to get any answers.

I think I'll just do what 99% of the racers are doing...ditching the mystery and going back to gasoline. It's $25 for a 4412 at the junk yard and I can get all kinds of information on how to improve it and race it. 80-84 jets for circle track racing a larger 50cc auxillary pump, different floats, a touch colder than stock plug (autolite in my case), timining 34 degrees advanced, any 110 gasoline fuel pump (under $100.00 without needing a regulator and go!

Now if you would have said this is what you need to run e85 in your race car, maybe over the winter, you might have got $600 from me. Now, I'm going to put it on ebay and say good bye to the guessing game!

PS...it was the filter that was the problem, not the pump. It had a paper filter that the Ethanol destroyed. A screen filter should be used with Ethanol...I hope this saves someone the nightmare I went through.

Frustrated and moving on...

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

Understand your frustration Fastgrove. On the other hand guys like Eric 68 and Drag Chevette have been doing carbs for several years now and are two of the best in the whole country- the problem they have is that they have learned that a few big name carb builders have been trolling threads trying to find out how they do it so well but have not invested the time and money to do it themselves.

There are dozens of excellent websites that have all this info in their history and current threads. If you look even in the very old threads here you will find much of what you need EXCEPT some of the internal mods needed to the metering blocks that really should only be done by the pros anyway due to the tools and knowledge required. Some companies have been caught redhanded with this info yet they still never got it right because they never got the blocks or customization to the engine right.

If you want to give it another shot I suggest you call Mark or Eric to see if they can help you privately but not post too much here that can be "trolled". There are now several decent local builders that can do a decent enough job for circle track but if you want the absolute most- turn to the two mentioned here. That said, there are several circle track and drag guys around here who are runnng E85 at the top of their class, and a few of them are using local builders. I would like to see more but as you said- if you are trying to do it yourself or with a local builder who has not done it before the knowledge is there- but harder to find than with everday race gas.

Nearly every site I go to has had a filter discussion and paper filters are usually found deficient. Not so with stainless screens or microglass elements. You did not say what type of filter you had.

89shortbox · Joined: 04 Nov 2007 Posts: 153 Location: Michigan

I might be kinda repeating what alcohol just said.

SEARCH
Its your friend. There are many posts on this site that cover a conversion and things to learn while your researching that.

Timing , plugs, fuel pumps that people have succesfully used.

Mark and Eric will help but they cant give it all up. They have lots of time , money and testing on the carbs to work right.
To be honest there is a lot of what they have learned in various spots on this site that they have shared while they where bettering there tunes.
_________________
----------------------
89 S10
406 SBC Twin Turbo BT
Going E85 this coming season
HAHA, the season is alreay gone to another season.

Fastgrove · Joined: 21 Aug 2010 Posts: 11

I never realized that asking if I could run a racing gas fuel pump or must I buy a methanol fuel pump or what jets to run would matter to someone building E85 carbs? I don't think I was asking for trade secrets?

I'll rephrase the question...

Do I need to replace my Carter 110 GPM gasoline racing carb if I'm switching to Ethanol? I read that E85 does not have the same effect as alcohol. I was just wondering if anybody out there had any luck running a gas fuel pump.

Why do I ask? It's a whole bunch of money for me to switch to an alcohol fuel pump.

First off, I did purchase a 130 gpm Holley Alcohol pump. When I went to install it I was amazed to find out that it pumped out at 13 lbs when I need only 7-8 lbs. I needed a fuel regulator and a return line. $150 more expense. Next, the inlet was sticking into my rad hose, the outlet pointed at my oil filter, the huge fuel pump hit my stock steering pump. Not any good news here and it got worse.

Here is the solution because the rules state...only a mechanical fuel pump may be used...

Purchase a water pump from an older Ford 302 that has the bottom return to the left. $125 Purchase a Aluminum Chevrolet racing radiator $350 that will work with that type of water pump. Purchase new Radiator Hoses, top and bottom $50. Purchase a remote oil filter $70 so I can hook my carb to the outlet of the pump. Lastly, purchase a $750 pulley system and a $300 Sweet Power Steering Unit to be able to install my new $400 Holley Alcohol fuel pump. Now what would you do? Nobody can tell me, or want's to, if I can avoid the expense of all this by running the Carter 110 gpm gasoline fuel pump. Obviously, the E85 is for sale and a 4412 gas carb is the best way for me to go.

I was not asking for any trade secrets.

89shortbox · Joined: 04 Nov 2007 Posts: 153 Location: Michigan

I dont see why you couldnt use your mechanical fuel pump if you are truely only making around 325hp. IF you can get like a 130 or 150 mech pump i would do that.
You mention the pump just stopped pumping fuel.
I did post recommending you take the pump apart and look at the diaphram. If theres no holes or tears and its not shriveling up then it should should pump fuel. I would make sure the fuel filter is not clogged or any other screen.

Cant really say if an 86 jet is enough cuz we dont know what configuration the carb has internally.

6 psi fuel pressure will be fine.
Timing will be very close to what you had on gasoline. But give it what it wants.

How does the motor run in comparison to gasoline?
_________________
----------------------
89 S10
406 SBC Twin Turbo BT
Going E85 this coming season
HAHA, the season is alreay gone to another season.

Fastgrove · Joined: 21 Aug 2010 Posts: 11

I found I had a badly clogged fuel filter. It was a paper element and now it is a screen.

The car is fired up again and seems to be fine. I'm going to Jamestown N.D. with the Carter 110 gas pump because I can't fit my alcohol pump in the stock setting that I have at the moment. I set the timing at 36 degrees. Advance is locked. I have upped the jets to 92's from 86's and probably won't hit 6500 with the gears I'm running...6:00's. It's a quarter mile oval so 4000-6500 rpm's is the area the little motor will run. I'll give you the feed back Tuesday. Thanks for your advice, I'm leaving the gas fuel pump on and trying it. Hopefully, I can make it a few races without changing the Carter. I was not joking what I need to do to get the alcohol pump that I bought to fit...that's a lot of work that I don't mind doing this winter...not now.

I appreciate the advice.