E85Forum.com

roadtrip120 · Joined: 11 Oct 2009 Posts: 8

I pulled the intake off the car a few days ago to find rubber in the intake track, some how it made its way past the injectors. I have the car parked for 7 months with out draining the tank or flushing the system. I didn't think this was an issue with E-85??

Here are the pics

1994 Z-28
13.0 :1 Compression
541rwhp 463rwtq on e-85
Fastest Lt1 6spd N/A in the country

twin walbro fuel pumps, gm lines up half the car, then Stainless -6an lines to the rails and return to the gm line at the half way pt on the car. 6- lb injectors 70% duty cycle

i am considering on going back to Vp but i dont want to pay 8.00 a gallon when i was used to 2.00 for e-85

i bought new line , going to change everything out but i can decide if i'm going to keep running this stuff or not

any imput what would cause this??

thanks

Brady
_________________
[COLOR="Blue"]94 Z-28 [/COLOR]
385 LT4, Dart CNC T4P Pro1's , Solid Roller, Single Plane, Faceplated T56, Jessel Belt Drive
10.075 at 135.6mph 1.48"- N/A -900ft DA
2008 LTX Shootout N/A Champion
2008 LTX Shootout 6SPD Runner up

hotrod · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 872 Location: Colorado

In general, no it is not a problem with E85 but we have seen occasional reports of "gunk" deposits showing up in intakes and on fuel injectors.

I ran my WRX on E85 for years on the stock fuel system and never saw the slightest hint of any build up. In fact it cleaned everything so well the injectors and fuel lines looked like new with I opened up the engine to make some upgrades.

It does not seem to follow a clear pattern, and may be a local fuel contamination issue but folks are still trying to pin it down.

First, see if it dissolves with gasoline. Some folks who found a similar build up on their injectors found it went away completely if they occasionally added gasoline to the fuel tank. This implies what ever it is, is not readily soluble in ethanol but if there is enough gasoline in the fuel blend it is easily re-dissolved and goes away.

We have hundreds of users that have never seen this sort of thing so we know it is not a generic problem with E85 but some how is local to the user.

It could be due to a blender that is not careful about cleaning storage tanks or using tanker trucks that are contaminated with some other heavy hydrocarbon.

It could be due to a gas station that did not properly clean out their storage tanks before converting old tanks to E85 from some other fuel.

It could be old gasoline deposits that have collected in your fuel system due to years of gasoline use (if this is an older car), and are now getting cleaned up by the ethanol. If so a few fuel filter changes and the problem will disappear.

Last it could be some odd circumstance like a gasket sealer used in your engine build or a gasket material or hose is not happy with ethanol.

If you bought all your fuel from a single source you could try switching to a different supplier, or you could take a sample of your fuel and put it in an open glass jar and let it evaporate and see if a tar like residue shows up as the last of the fuel evaporates.

That would indicate that it some sort of heavy hydrocarbon mixed in with the fuel in very small amounts that over time builds up as the fuel in the intake manifold evaporates after you shut the engine off.

It appears to be relatively rare and so far no one has been able to pinpoint a specific cause, as it comes and it goes for only a small minority of drivers.

What region or city do you live in?

Do you only buy from a single vendor?

Do you ever blend gasoline with the E85 for a partial blend like E60?

Do you ever use fuel additives like octane enhancers or top oils either now with the E85 or in years past?
(some fuel system additives do not play nice with ethanol)

Is your fuel tank metal or plastic?

Is your car an older vehicle that ran on straight gasoline for many years?
(from you description of a 94 Z-28 I suspect 10 or more years of gasoline usage.)

How long have you been running E85 in it?

Have you changed fuel filters?

On some cars like the DSM family their injectors seem more prone to a build up, perhaps due to some fuel leakage after engine shut off that over time leaves a residue as the fuel evaporates.

Larry

roadtrip120 · Joined: 11 Oct 2009 Posts: 8

A lot of info thanks for sharing..

here are a few of my answers

94 car gasoline since day one, i switched to e85 back in October, i have run 30 gallons threw the car, 5 gallons at a time, drag strip and dyno sessions. its a gm metal tank, with factory style fuel filter ( i'm going to cut it open tomorrow and see if there is anything in it) ..

All the fuel was bought from a single gas station, it was been remodeled , not sure if it had new tanks put in or not for e85. On a camaro the gm hard lines run up half the car then turn soft plastic, i switched the plastic over to earls stainless hose from Summit/ jegs.. I did use some Stable e85 treatment before i parked the car from Dec till May..

I store my fuel in a couple VP 5 gallon race cans ( metal) .. they are less than a year old, and i have never noticed anything coming out of the can that would cause this. I could see your point about it cleaning out my fuel system, i just never thought it would end up in the intake track.

I would like to continue to run e85 but not at the cost of cleaning out the motor and fuel system on a regular basis.

How often do guys flush there fuel system with gas if the car sits?

thanks for the help and incite..
_________________
[COLOR="Blue"]94 Z-28 [/COLOR]
385 LT4, Dart CNC T4P Pro1's , Solid Roller, Single Plane, Faceplated T56, Jessel Belt Drive
10.075 at 135.6mph 1.48"- N/A -900ft DA
2008 LTX Shootout N/A Champion
2008 LTX Shootout 6SPD Runner up

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

I completely concur with Hotrod on his comments which are what I have seen also. I will re-ask the question;

Do you (or have you) used any fuel additives in the past or present?

Also- since your car sits a lot;
1) what area of the country are you located in?
2) if you were to put fresh E85 from the retail pump into a clean glass jar-- is it perfectly water clear and "brite" (sparkles) or does it have a ever so slight tint of yellow? Is it the same pulling the fuel out of your fuel line? (NOTE- THIS IS VERY SUBTLE- IT NEEDS TO BE IN A VERY CLEAN GLASS AND UNDER BRITE SUNLIGHT)
3) How is your fuel cell vented?

newalky · Joined: 30 Sep 2008 Posts: 84

I have seen this residue in my intake also.(last year,haven't looked lately)

I may have another issue, could it be oil from improper ring sealing?
Or valve guides/seals?

This is not a widespread issue! Might not be the fuels fault!

I did the evaporation test per Larry and Alcohols suggestion. It left a slight tan color in the bottom of the jar. Not black as I found in intake.

I will do an inspection soon and will report my findings!
newalky

brillko · Joined: 19 Jul 2010 Posts: 6

I have these. And i ruined my engine with some clogged injectors.

In my country (sweden) the E85 has been diluted with a blend called ED95. (some fuel to run diesel trucks on)

Anyway. Started to use alot of redline SI-1 alcohol lube. And it works really well.

You can always buy Race E85 and skip these problems. But i guess its pricey too?

//Stefan

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

Stefan- I had heard about this last week- something about the supplier over there in Sweden making the switch to ED95 without telling anyone?

What specifically is in the ED95 that causes this?

I had heard it was sulfate deposits- so what did they put into it to introduce sulfates? (sulfates here in the states with US spec E98 are virtually non-detectable- and what little there are is reported to come in with the gas used for denaturant). We have never even had a detect in our finished product. Sounds almost like a lubricant for the high compression Scandia bus engines was the culprit-somebody goofed?

roadtrip120 · Joined: 11 Oct 2009 Posts: 8

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

I hear you on the motor!

The yellow tint tells me it is ethanol blended with gasoline- not natural gasoline thus there potentially could be an additive in conflict (but not likely) Natural gasoline is water clear up here.

Do look at the fuel from the tank in a clean glass just to see how ugly it is?

Fuel additives-just asking- some guys add top lube, some guys add stabil, some guys throw in who knows what. Some of it could potentially clash. And yes- I have had some guys really do go over the top and throw in octane additive Rolling Eyes

for who knows what. MMT is in a few popular store brand ones and is a no-no.

roadtrip120 · Joined: 11 Oct 2009 Posts: 8

I replaced the stainless lines tonight with the light weight black hose, and the old lines looked perfect. The fuel rails were clean as can be. I'm going to cut open the fuel filter and see what it looks like.(EDIT) fuel filter looks great, nothing black or sticky in the papers like what was in the intake runners. I'm still going to pull the tank and inspect my pumps and the hoses inside the tank.

I'm beginning to think you are right about it cleaning out the fuel system, but i dont need this doing it again if i continue to run e85.

so is my E85 blend different and that is whats causing some issues??

thanks for the help guys
_________________
[COLOR="Blue"]94 Z-28 [/COLOR]
385 LT4, Dart CNC T4P Pro1's , Solid Roller, Single Plane, Faceplated T56, Jessel Belt Drive
10.075 at 135.6mph 1.48"- N/A -900ft DA
2008 LTX Shootout N/A Champion
2008 LTX Shootout 6SPD Runner up

roadtrip120 · Joined: 11 Oct 2009 Posts: 8

brillko · Joined: 19 Jul 2010 Posts: 6

I dont have anything in tank, filter, rails.

But i had in my injectors flowing unequal. And in my heads where the injectors hit.

Youare correct Alkohol. They used the same trucks and didnt flush them after changing fluids.

But i dont think its an ED95 problem. it looks like its a "color" additive. its sticky and its blue.

I now run my additive and no problems yet. But youll never know when.

Others here just changes to gasoline after an race and lets it flush clean for 30 seconds.

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

Quote from

"so is my E85 blend different and that is whats causing some issues?? "

I would not go so far as to say that- it is the most common form of E85, but it always begs the question of what additives are in the gas and just what kind of gas was used to make the E85. I always ask this question as a point of reference so that long term I can try to trendline what was used if an issue arises. I have yet to ever have one of my customers report this issue (and do not ever want to have it happen either) yet quite a few are drag, street/strip, and circle track racing on it (plus about another 3 million gallons/year going into FFV's). I use denaturant (ultra low sulfur natural gasoline- mostly c5 pentane) for making E85 here. I use 0 additives except for the standard corrosion inhibitor that is already in the US Spec E98. When GM came out with their FFV's they had a warning right on their fuel filler door- "use no additives"-they had to have a reason for this but I have never been able to identify which ones they are concerned with. I have tested some special Lubrizol additives for ethanol but found no benefit nor issues with them.

roadtrip120 · Joined: 11 Oct 2009 Posts: 8

I just heard from back from Kensler fuel injection , they said the injectors tested great , they inspected and changed the basket screens but there was nothing in the old screens.

So that confirms what you have been saying about it being a fuel issue not a decomposing fuel line.

Just to clarify I didn't find any rubber hose substance any where in the system
_________________
[COLOR="Blue"]94 Z-28 [/COLOR]
385 LT4, Dart CNC T4P Pro1's , Solid Roller, Single Plane, Faceplated T56, Jessel Belt Drive
10.075 at 135.6mph 1.48"- N/A -900ft DA
2008 LTX Shootout N/A Champion
2008 LTX Shootout 6SPD Runner up