E85Forum.com

toolless · Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Posts: 9

Hi
This is my first post so a big hi to you all
I am considering converting my car from petrol to ethanol but before I do I need to know how much it will cost to produce the stuff as I have an LPG kit hear and maybe use LPG; which ever is the cheapest fuel rely

I have brewed beer and cider before but not 100% pure alcohol
Could anyone tell me what the cheapest form of crop would be to make my sugar if that not of table sugar

And how much do you home brewers, brew it for in this day and age of high food prices?$

Many Thanks
Toolless

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

One of the decisions you have to make is if you are going to home brew- will you make dry ethanol (annydrous-US Fuel grade) or wet (hydrous) such as used in Brazil. It will affect cost, time, and vehicle needs. Here is a post that discusses this somewhat;

http://e85forum.com/about1119.html

Here are some home brew sites;

http://gillesenergies.webs.com/feedstocks.htm

http://forum-alcohol4fuel.com/index.php

http://www.permaculture.com/

toolless · Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Posts: 9

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

The 4th does look like a car salesman- LOL. He is a pretty bright guy though but one really has to buy his book for the data- everything from best feedstocks, to how to make it, and engine mods. I never bought it but always wanted to. He is the California professor type.

I do not make my own- out my office window flows about 156,000 gal of annhydrous E100 every day. (an ethanol plant). We make it from corn but also buy some waste whey ethanol from a plant a few miles away. Waste whey ethanol comes from the whey permeate left over after making a feed product from the whey which is a cheese by-product.

Way back in some really old threads here you can also find posts from Thumpin about his equipment.

You make dry or wet ethanol from any starch, sugar, cellulose, etc. -- wet or dry only depends if you to take out the last 5% of water- if you do not it is cheaper, it's called hydrous, and it may be more difficult to keep it mixed with gas- plus it will tend to be more corrosive. US specification annhydrous (dry) ethanol contains <0.8 % water, corrosion inhibitor, and 2% gasoline as a poison (denaturant). An ethanol plant will use molecular sieves to remove the last 5% water that distillation will not take out. A home brewer would use a special clay.

At $3.25 corn an ethanol plant will need to get paid approx. $1.40-1.50 to break even, paying workers, depreciation, interest, supplies, but they can sell CO2, corn oil, and distillers grains also.

I do not know what costs would run with making it from sugar.

toolless · Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Posts: 9

toolless · Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Posts: 9

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

I am on my blackberry tonight so I cannot read the chart but if you are asking about corn- a bushel weighs 56 #'s and will yield approx 2.8 gallons of ethanol- thus a ton would yield about 100 gallons if you do a real good job with optimizing fermentation.

toolless · Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Posts: 9

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

Barley is not corn (maize). Barley is a small grain type more closely similar to wheat or oats. It does of course contain starch and thus will make ethanol just fine. Very little barley is raised here relative to the other small grain.families. Corn-being a large (coarse) grain comes in many types- sweet(edible), white(for food milling), popcorn(edible) and yellow dent to name a few. Only a tiny relative amount of yellow dent (by far our largest crop acres) has ever been used for anything other than animal feed or ethanol here. It is our main feedstock for ethanol though other grains can be used and are on occasion.

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

Quote toolless;

"Alcohol wrote:

I do not make my own- out my office window flows about 156,000 gal of annhydrous E100 every day. (an ethanol plant). We make it from corn but also buy some waste whey ethanol from a plant a few miles away. Waste whey ethanol comes from the whey permeate left over after making a feed product from the whey which is a cheese by-product.

I dont understand what is the buy product of waste whey
Is it rely cheese? "

ANSWER------
TO MAKE CHEESE THEY END UP WITH WHEY AS A BY-PRODUCT.
THEY THEN TAKE THE WASTE WHEY TO MAKE A FEED PRODUCT LEAVING ANOTHER BY-PRODUCT WHICH IS WHEY PERMEATE (A green liquid). IT IS THE WHEY PERMEATE THEY THEN FERMENT TO ETHANOL RESULTING IN ETHANOL AND THEN GET ANOTHER
BY-PRODUCT- WATER.

Quote toolless;
"Ant cellulose 'cellulose thinners' used for removing or thinning out paint.
I thought all Alcohol was made from sugar and the starch was turned into sugar by cooking it? "

ANSWER----
WE DO NOT COOK THE CORN ANYMORE. WE USE TWO DIFFERENT ENZYMES TO CONVERT STARCH TO GLUCOSE- WHICH IS FERMENTABLE. TO MAKE ETHANOL FROM SUGAR IS EASIEST BECAUSE IT IS DIRECT. CELLULOSE IS THE TOUGHEST- THERE ARE TWO TYPES OF SUGARS PRESENT ONE OF WHICH FERMENTS MORE EASILY SUCH AS SUGAR OR STARCH BUT THE OTHER SUGAR TYPE IS DIFFICULT TO EXTRACT AND USE- THIS IS WHY THERE ARE SO FEW CELLULOSIC ETHANOL PLANTS AT THIS POINT- SCIENCE IS STILL WORKING TO REFINE THIS PROCESS TO BECOME COMPETITIVE WITH GASOLINE.

toolless · Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Posts: 9

Well i think I will stick to barley since as its all local and no transport costs and direct from the farmer
Going off the above chart I posted or the second link you gave me
If the figures are all correct 'barely 79.2 gallons per ton'
Then I can produce Ethanol for 30p liter
Which beats £1.24 for petrol and 61p for gas at the pumps LOL

It is now time I looked at the conversion on my car which i think i should start a new thread

Thanks For your help
Toolless

PS
is the left overs of my barely re sellable