E85Forum.com

440Jim · Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 188

I drove to the station that carries E85 and filled a 55 gallon drum for my race car. The station owner showed me the delivery sheets and it said:

4175 gallons ethanol
826 gallons gasoline
5001 gallons total delivered on 4/27/10

And I get that to be 4175/5001 -> 83.5% ethanol

So I did the water test and measured the meniscus as 97 and 90. That calculates to:

Hydrocarbon = 2.1 + 1.94(97-90) = 15.68
Ethanol = 100 - 15.68 = 84.3 % Pretty close, and that checks.

This station isn't cheap, but at 66 miles each way, it is the closest for me.
E85 $2.67/gallon
Gas $2.86/gallon

Much better than racing gas at $7.75/gallon!

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

Jim- recently I ran several comparisons of the water test method and got constantly strange #'s. So we mixed a large sample of E85 in the lab and got the same. In our trials we consistantly found the water sample method over stated the ethanol content by 5% and the lab's gas chromatograph gave us 5% under the actual. This was done at 60 degrees F using distilled water but waiting 30 minutes for the double miniscus to go away. Very strange but perhaps in part because I use natural gasoline rather than pump gas for hydrocarbon.

From that I decided to keep tracking each station tank by taking each new load and the tank remnants to calculate actual. First summer load (83.3%) into a tank that previously had 78.4% spring blend will normally bring the tank up into the 82% range, second 83% and 3rd load brings it to approx 83.2% (4th will be 83.3%).

In conclusion I would trust the load sheet more than the water test but you may want to ask how many summer loads went in to nail actual %.

kwlevo · Joined: 14 May 2010 Posts: 18

Just too add to this, as you know Alcohol, I'm going to be mixing my own E85 with Shell 91 and i would like it to be as consistent ratio as possible with my race tune. What is the best way of testing the ethanol content?

Assuming the water test would be the simplest way. i know using distilled water is one tip for better results, are there any more?

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

kwlevo · Joined: 14 May 2010 Posts: 18

From the Shell Canada website their 91 octaine gas contains no ethanol, but i'll test anyways. if it's E0 i'll just do my mix by liter.

Would it be possible to test with hydrometer like i do with my MS109 race gas? you would need to know the specific gravity of both the pure ethanol and gas, mix and do the math... hummm might work Smile

but then again i might be making this too complicated.

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

I looked into using hydrometers for my application but since I would need to test from e70 to e85 I would need several. For your application it might be ok but be aware that pump gas gravity can have a fair amount of variability even inside of one brand-this could throw you off a bit. I would just go by your math- that should be plenty reliable.

89shortbox · Joined: 04 Nov 2007 Posts: 153 Location: Michigan

what is natural gasoline?
_________________
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89 S10
406 SBC Twin Turbo BT
Going E85 this coming season
HAHA, the season is alreay gone to another season.

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

Natural gasoline (commonly used as denaturant)that we get around here is nearly all pentanes and from what I am told- mostly C5 pentane. This can be pulled from crude or nat gas condensates. It is refined down to an extremely low sulfur content, is water clear, has a high vapor pressure,(so less need be used than pump gas) but it's only drawback is that it is lower octane.It will not contain detergency additives which may be a plus in many applications.

kwlevo · Joined: 14 May 2010 Posts: 18

so it's true that the Shell 91 has no ethanol in it and i made my first mix of 86% ethanol Smile

lets see how it runs now Smile

newalky · Joined: 30 Sep 2008 Posts: 84

None of the people I talk to at stations know of drop sheets. I have been testing via the water test. But this test may not be reliable??
I have recently experienced a performance drop off. This may be about the time I finished drum A and started using drum B.
Both drums tested @ 84% on the same day and since.

Drum A was 98% which I lowered to 83%-84%.

Drum B was pump e85 which I tested twice before filling the drum.

I have had to drop my jetting from 96/96 to 92/93 in order for the car to run well, but am still off.
I wonder if the needed jet change was due to a lower ethanol content?
What can I do to get accurate readings? Thanks, newalky

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

Perhaps it is a terminology problem- we actually call the load documents manifests. It could also be the only the home office of the chain is receiving the manifest.

You will have to refresh my memory Newalky- what were you adding to E98 before- E0 pump gas, E10 pump gas, unleaded race gas, oxygenated race gas etc?

Anything else change in your set up?

What is your compression or boost?

Carb/filters still clean?

How do the plugs look?

Where in your tune does it feel off?

For a second opinion in your E85 ethanol % call your state's fuel quality inspector division and see if they now have a way to test it- even if they have to do a dilution to 10% to get it in range of their equipment and then "math it" back.

Better yet might be to look into the GM test kit to compare to the water/phase test that way you have the simplest test readily available. With it however please note the exposure time to air is absolutely critical.

newalky · Joined: 30 Sep 2008 Posts: 84

Alcohol, I will try manifest.

I diluted e98 with pump e10, I used math and came pretty close on first try/removed 4 gal. of 98 and replaced with 4 gal. e10.

12.8:1 compr.

I have cleaned/flushed the whole system. Found some rust coming from inside a different drum in the Magna Fuel ProStar 500 screen filter.
Nothing in the pressure regulator(filter is doing it's job!)

Good news is the Summit brand braided fuel hose is alcohol compatable after 2 years!

Insp./cleaned carb, found nothing.

changed convertors=same

went through rear susp. coilovers, 4link = same

front susp. replaced shocks, heims on upper control arms(were binding)

new cap, rotor, plug wires.

After all that it ran the SAME as last outing until lowering the jetting.
Then it went from 9.82 to 9.707

What is the GM test kit? Get it at GM dealer?
Thanks for your help. I would be using your fuel if I lived closer! (30 miles south of Chicago) newalky

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

The GM fuel quality tester listed here is 2X the expense of the one I remembered- this one is $785- got to be a better price elsewhere;

http://gmspecialservicetools.spx.com/Documents/GM10-159.pdf

Ok- on this web link one states it can be found for under $500- especially on ebay. However the other method I wanted you to see is also mentioned- using the zeitronix dash reader and an old GM or Ford intank composition sensor;

http://www.modularfords.com/forums/showthread.php/134232-Testing-Fuel-Composition

http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/ECA/ECA.htm

kwlevo · Joined: 14 May 2010 Posts: 18

i have found one of the Kent-Moore J-44175. To read it all I'll need is a multimeter? and it will be more accurate then the water test, sound great to me Smile

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

I have not used the Kent Moore myself- if there is a GM dealership near you it would be a good to check what the meter requirements are. OR- you may want to check with the seller. I do know that it is very important to use the tool exactly as prescribed. When GM dealers first got them I had a couple of dealers who came up with ethanol contents 10% too high- it seems the drop on the sensor will gain air moisture fast enough to throw the frequency readings off. (a tiny sample has a high exposure ratio to air vs what is sealed in your tank or fuel can).