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GMRedline
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
Posts: 10
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 Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:29 pm Post subject: Intro and common question about AFR on a supercharged engine |
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Hey guys.
My name is Eric and I drive an 06 Saturn ION Redline. (ie Cobalt SS Super Charged)
Sorry I am sort of a pic whore! 
I have all the common bolt ons: Intake, full exhaust, larger intercooler, racing clutch etc. I recently bought an upgraded Harrop TVS 1320 supercharger. I tuned the car and took it to the dyno and here are my results.
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q134/ericbristol/redline/HPT/TVSDyno.jpg
287whp 253wtq.
Not bad but I was hoping to be over 300whp with that setup. I maxed out the timing at 19 degrees with a 11.7-11.8 afr on run 013 from the graph.
On run 015 I maxed out the timing at 20 degrees with an 11.1 afr.
Most LSJ owners with the upgraded blower can squeeze out 325-340whp out of this setup with Methanol injection. They use a high ratio methanol to water and a large nozzle. Usually 75/25 - 90/10 meth/water ratio and a 5-7gph nozzle.
So octane and cooling are key to making hp with this blower which lead me to this forum.
I have read a bunch of threads on this forum regarding afr on E85 and have already upgraded my injectors from 60# to 80# fuel injectors. 630 and 840cc for you metric guys.
I have the E85 dialed in with my new injectors at 11.7-11.9 AFR @ WOT.
So my afr question...
I have read that the subie guys run an 11.5 afr on E85. Does anyone know what the ideal afr for those guys is on premium fuel? I am trying to make a apples to apples comparison.
On the LSJ most people consider a powerful/safe afr of 11.8 on premium fuel. Guys who run meth injection will run 12.1-12.3 afr. So we like to run on the rich side with these FI engines.
I have 60 miles on my first tank of E85. I have not modified the timing table because I want to make sure that I am running the right afr now that I have my tune dialed in.
So far the car feels great! I am the first person to convert a LSJ with the 80# fuel injectors to E85 so I had to do quite a bit of work to get the injector flow map settings figured out.
Does anyone have any suggestions on what I should run for a afr?
Thanks. |
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skiracer
Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Posts: 140
Location: Los Angeles, Kalifornia
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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I run 11.50 AFR on 91 octane
On E85, i run 12.25 AFR
Both AFR's are considered "conservative" and not close to the limits...
_________________
'06 Evo IX Stage 1 by RRE,Walbro 255lph fuel pump,RC Engineering1000cc Injectors, AVO exhaust,RRE flash, (325whp @ 22PSI 91 octane, 353whp @ 25psi on 100 octane, 383whp @30psi on E85),Zeitronix wideband/Ethanol Content Analyzer, Defi gauges |
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GMRedline
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| skiracer wrote: | I run 11.50 AFR on 91 octane
On E85, i run 12.25 AFR
Both AFR's are considered "conservative" and not close to the limits... |
What is considered the limits for your engine? |
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skiracer
Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Posts: 140
Location: Los Angeles, Kalifornia
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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on 91 octane, 12.25-12.50 is pushing it
On E85, 12.75-13AFR is pushing it
_________________
'06 Evo IX Stage 1 by RRE,Walbro 255lph fuel pump,RC Engineering1000cc Injectors, AVO exhaust,RRE flash, (325whp @ 22PSI 91 octane, 353whp @ 25psi on 100 octane, 383whp @30psi on E85),Zeitronix wideband/Ethanol Content Analyzer, Defi gauges |
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skiracer
Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Posts: 140
Location: Los Angeles, Kalifornia
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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don't expect the engine to survive long at the AFR's i listed above...
_________________
'06 Evo IX Stage 1 by RRE,Walbro 255lph fuel pump,RC Engineering1000cc Injectors, AVO exhaust,RRE flash, (325whp @ 22PSI 91 octane, 353whp @ 25psi on 100 octane, 383whp @30psi on E85),Zeitronix wideband/Ethanol Content Analyzer, Defi gauges |
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hotrod
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 872
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I have read that the subie guys run an 11.5 afr on E85. Does anyone know what the ideal afr for those guys is on premium fuel? I am trying to make a apples to apples comparison. |
It depends on what octane premium they are running. Keep in mind the Subaru engine is a very over square engine (large bore/stroke ratio) and is more prone to detonation than the 4G63 DSM engine.
From the factory on pump premium the engine goes very rich at WOT high boost, some of them going to 10.5 -11.0:1. The modders gain power by leaning them out to the 11.5-11.7 range on pump premium but that leaves very little window for errors of boost control or timing. On high octane racing fuels (Sunoco GT100, GT+ or C16) the can lean them out into the 12.0 range but that is right on the edge.
The high power tuners on E85 seem to push them to 12.0, most of us who are doing street tunes and want reliability over max power stay in the high 11's. My first conversion was 11.5:1 and ran great, my current setup is at about 12.0:1. (lambda 0.82)
Hope that helps.
Larry |
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GMRedline
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| hotrod wrote: | | From the factory on pump premium the engine goes very rich at WOT high boost, some of them going to 10.5 -11.0:1. |
Very simular to the stock GM tunes. In WOT the stock tune commands 10.8 which usually results in actual readings of 10.6 - 10.9.
| hotrod wrote: | | The modders gain power by leaning them out to the 11.5-11.7 range on pump premium but that leaves very little window for errors of boost control or timing. |
Also very similar to the LSJ.
| hotrod wrote: | The high power tuners on E85 seem to push them to 12.0, most of us who are doing street tunes and want reliability over max power stay in the high 11's. My first conversion was 11.5:1 and ran great, my current setup is at about 12.0:1. (lambda 0.82)
Hope that helps.
Larry |
Very helpful.
I think I am going to leave my command afr at 11.76 and keep the Maf right there or a little below. I have an LC-1 WB and constantly monitor my fuel readings.
I just wanted to make sure that I was safe and not leaving too much on the table.
Everyone has been very helpful. I will probably post up some dyno results in a couple of weeks.
For now, I need to work on my timing table! |
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skiracer
Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Posts: 140
Location: Los Angeles, Kalifornia
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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Make sure you can monitor knock. If you're knocking and your tune appears to be rich, its referred to as "rich knock"
_________________
'06 Evo IX Stage 1 by RRE,Walbro 255lph fuel pump,RC Engineering1000cc Injectors, AVO exhaust,RRE flash, (325whp @ 22PSI 91 octane, 353whp @ 25psi on 100 octane, 383whp @30psi on E85),Zeitronix wideband/Ethanol Content Analyzer, Defi gauges |
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GMRedline
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| skiracer wrote: | | Make sure you can monitor knock. If you're knocking and your tune appears to be rich, its referred to as "rich knock" |
Yup. I have Dual Interceptor Scan gauges and the tuning software HP Tuners. |
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GMRedline
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:24 pm Post subject: Dyno Results |
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Here the results from my dyno runs.
Here are the tune setups for my 3 runs:
Run 1 - 2.8" on 18 degrees of timing. (apples to apples to my 0TTP Stage 1 tune)
Run 2 - 2.8" on 25 degrees of timing.
Run 3 - 2.7" on 25 degrees of timing.
Here are the results compared to the 0TTP Stage 1 tune:
Run 1 - 264whp 245wtq [COLOR="Lime"]+7[/COLOR]whp [COLOR="Lime"]+7[/COLOR]wtq
Run 2 - 278whp 255wtq [COLOR="Lime"]+21[/COLOR]whp [COLOR="Lime"]+17[/COLOR]wtq
Run 3 - 280whp 260wtq [COLOR="Lime"]+23[/COLOR]whp [COLOR="Lime"]+22[/COLOR]wtq
Apples to Apples Premium fuel vs E85
All 3 Runs
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GMRedline
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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Those results where with the stock 1L Eaton M62.
My Eaton TVS 1320 (1.32L) goes back on this weekend! |
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GMRedline
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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Here are the results.
+36whp +32wtq
I know I can get more out of the car with a smaller pulley. But I am running out of injector. |
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