E85Forum.com

imprezarsc · Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 87

http://www.gt-labs.net/e85conversion.html

I haven't typed up much else for my site lately. The angle I'm shooting for explaining the E85 "conversion" is that there really was no conversion at all. I "tuned" the factory system with a few replacement parts. It was done with parts you can get almost anywhere. I think manufacturers have been building safeguards into their own cars in case of a sudden, or gradual, fuelling switch or change in energy policy. Since selling a "conversion kit" is illegal, I think it's only a matter of retuning the fuel system to run ethanol. I think there's some genuine link specifically to ethanol. Propane, natural gas, methanol, butane, or whatever...they can all run, but only ethanol can run in the existing fuel system. Instead of having "flex fuel", it's really a lot easier to just run gas OR E85. Any thoughts?
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http://www.grantouringlabs.com My ethanol conversion and tuning site.

hotrod · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 872 Location: Colorado

Good write up Gary. I agree with your assumptions that current cars are probably pre-engineered to some degree to run on E85.

All it would take for many cars would be to drive to the dealer and get an E85 reflash on the ecu I suspect. In a true fuel emergency as you outlined such as a repeat of the 1970s' oil crisis current regs would not be and issue. Most the the EPA rules would go out the window at the signing of a presidential emergency declaration, much as the fuel regs got set aside to accomodate the sudden loss of refinery capacity following Hurricane Katrina. That would be all it would take for the manufactures to provide an E85 compatible reflash.

I will have some tuning info for you web page here eventually! If that is, I can ever get my new delta dash software shipped from the company I bought it from.
Been waiting for over a month now for it to arrive.

Larry

BURNALCOHOL · Joined: 19 Oct 2005 Posts: 50 Location: Raymond,NE

Your re-tuning would be considered the same as a conversion by the EPA.
Your re-tuned car still would have to go through the Federal Test Procedure(FTP) to make it legal according to the EPA. Otherwise it is considered tampering. Any modification to make it run a different fuel is considered tampering by the EPA because it could change the emissions.

I have been going round and round with them about this but it's not easy getting a clear answer. Even about a simple question about what is the cost to have the test done for a individual person (not a company) or who do I contact for information about the FTP?

The funny thing is the whole law is centered around propane and compressed natural gasses not ethanol.
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Jeremy Nicholls

Lgodave · Joined: 01 Sep 2005 Posts: 28 Location: WI

Hi,

Well the only thing for it then is to change the Law to allow for more Ethanol based modification of existing non-FFVs...

As previously suggested... the biggest issue with non-FFVs and Ethanol is if the vehicle's ECU has the authority to adjust high enough to maintain a controlled burn of E85. (OBDII should allow at least E20-E30 blends) If you can have that you might also get better emmissions tests VS if the ECU wasn't able to adjust...

Without having much knowledge of what REALLY makes a TRUE FFV... I suspect as mentioned on that website... An Ethanol approved Fuel Pump would go a LONG way towards having an E85 capable vehicle. Does the EPA really have a say if you wanted to "upgrade" to a better fuel pump? As long as it is properly installed (no duct tape)... I'd say it should be cool.

imprezarsc · Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 87

I make it a point to talk to anyone else I see using the same E85 pump. There's been numerous folks I've chatted with who have hollowed out cats, or none at all, and passed with a 50/50 mix of E85 and pump-gas. A few of them were in fact OBD1 (89 Chevy C10, 91 Dodge Durango. both trucks).

Your last paragraph was more or less my point. I did my conversion with parts that anyone could get a hold of! It's just a matter of increasing the volume. The ECU does the rest. OBD2 has been standard for almost 8 years. 96 was when it took effect. There's millions of ODB2 cars on the road already. I'm running straight E85 on a plain jane OBD2 car, with no other mods than just a fuel pump, hotter plugs, and a 5 cent hose clamp on the fuel-return line. It was such a cheap hack with existing parts to get it to run happily, something had to be pre-engineered and sitting right under my nose. Think of it as a government conspiracy with a very happy ending Smile

.

I'll try it soon with WRX injectors and lower fuel pressure to see how she fares. Stock sized on the RS is 280cc and I'll be stepping up to 440cc. Larger injectors on a stock RS computer using gas makes it buck and surge. Using ethanol should change things.
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http://www.grantouringlabs.com My ethanol conversion and tuning site.

BURNALCOHOL · Joined: 19 Oct 2005 Posts: 50 Location: Raymond,NE

imprezarsc,

Are you just using a larger fuel pump? Or are you adjusting the computer's fuel mixture limits too?

Whitish corrosion on the spark plugs from what I have found in my research would indicate the mixture may still be too lean.

On FFV's, The first ones to come out had sensors in the tank to detect the fuel type or percent of the mix of fuel. The newer ones just use the O2 sensor to do the adjustment. I have also noticed some FFV's use the same injector as the non-FFV model.
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Jeremy Nicholls

imprezarsc · Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 87

Yes, I'm using a larger fuel pump. A walbro 255 #GSS342. Hotter plugs and a cheap hose clamp on the return line round out the "tuning". I jacked my fuel pressure up with the hose clamp to compensate for running small stock injectors. The plugs aren't a bright white, either. I know what you mean by a "lean" look to the plugs. They have kind of a "wet" look, but not a blueish hue like they've been run too hot.

I'm no harvard educated guy by any stretch. There are things that make business sense, though. One thing that sticks out in my mind is that a car company would have standardized parts for the car no matter what country they are in. Not like LHD vs. RHD. But more like using the same doors, seats, paint, or cylinder heads despite a country's boundaries. Having as many standardized parts as possible makes more business sense is my point. Fuel lines that can handle ethanol or gas but are the same part makes good business sense.
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http://www.grantouringlabs.com My ethanol conversion and tuning site.

Tommy231 · Joined: 03 Oct 2005 Posts: 3

How do you raise the fuel pressure with a hose clamp? The fuel regulator on most systems maintains a consistent pressure across the injectors, which is a pretty critical tuning feature. The pressure across the injector needs to be fairly constant under all operating conditions. One exception to this is found on "returnless" systems, where the pressure is measured by the control system.

If you simply pinched-off the return line, then you probably invoked some non-linearity that could cause some issues. For every pound the manifold pressure increases, the fuel pressure should increase by the same amount, as per the regulator's purpose. For example, with a pinched-off return line, you might get more pressure at idle and around town, but at the higher fuel pressures such as at WOT, it might lean out. This is because the regulator does its own effective pinching of the fuel return. On a turbo car this condition could melt pistons.

You should get an adjustable fuel pressure regulator to go with that larger pump. You can also modify the existing regulator to raise the pressure by very carefully "squeazing" it in a vice with some spacers (at your own risk).

imprezarsc · Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 87

I know I should get a rrfpr. I have one it's just not installed. Hotrod and I did some data logging runs with the fuel pump, hose clamp, and hotter plugs. The fuel trims were fine. They're also untouched. I changed as little as possible to make this work. Things turned out fine. There's a fuel gauge on the inlet line, too. The pressure drop at WOT is about 5 pounds. Since I'm not running boost, I'm fine. I know I can't run boost on it like this. 5,000+miles later and everything is still kosher. I'm more worried about my tranny now that the car spins the tires in the first 3 gears.
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http://www.grantouringlabs.com My ethanol conversion and tuning site.

rebelman · Joined: 25 Apr 2006 Posts: 31 Location: North Carolina

I have a 1988 chevy S-10 that i would like to run on ethanol. I think that all that i need to do is put 4.3 liter injectors in it to run e85. I plan to put a 3.4 liter engine in it in a year or so. I don't know if these injectors would be big enough for the bigger engine. If anyone has converted an older TBI Truck with any good results please tell me.

stevewilliams · Joined: 08 May 2006 Posts: 4

Bugger.....

Wish I'd seen your post before I posted mine.....
I have a 1998 Forester GT ( 2.0 L turbo ) and want to run it on E85 here in Australia..

Problem is, E85 doesnt exist at pumps in Australia (yet) so I will have to brew my own ethanol at home and mix it by hand. This of course no doubt will create some problems, but if I can create a consistent mix thats trouble free, its all good.....

Any suggestions?